On Evil

[dagda]

What is evil? This is a tricky question. What you consider evil may be entirely different from my view on what is evil. I thought long and hard about this conundrum and came up with a suitable universal definition: any direct or indirect action which leads to the intentional harming, both emotionally and physically, of another consciousness. This means that while murder would be considered an evil act, manslaughter would not be as, in a fatal accident, no-one intends to cause harm. Although this does not absolve a careless driver etc from guilt, I doubt if anyone would argue that someone who has had a few too many could be considered evil, and so the definition holds firm.

Now that I have a definition of evil, I can move on too the root cause of evil: desire. All evil acts are committed because of a deep, primal desire for something. All rape cases, for instance, are committed due to a primal desire for revenge or simple lust. In historical terms, the Soviet atrocities were committed due to the overriding desire for a better world where everyone was equal-a utopia, if you will. Under the proper definition of evil, any act which can be considered wrong has, as its prime drive, desire to have, or maintain, something. As such, if humanity could learn to control its desires, evil would vanish like a morning mist.

What do you think?

[lrh9]

I don't believe in evil. I just believe in power.

[Kyuuketsuki]

I'm a moral relativist ... no such thing as evil (certainly not in the sense you're describing).

Kyu

[Edwardo Piet]

Certainly no such thing as OBJECTIVE evil. It's all entirely subjective.
It's a vast and complicated spectrum that you can't really define very easily! Partly to do with the fact morality is entirely subjective I'm sure! Because there's no evidence of OBJECTIVE morality as there isn't of 'evil'.

I do not think the cause of evil is desire either. Because one can desire things that one shouldn't but still have the discipline to not carry out those desires. Although NOT desiring such 'evil' things is BETTER of course

I think the cause of what I would generally describe as 'evil': Is ignorance. I think that, in a way - there is a such thing as moral intelligence which basically comes from emotional intelligence. Although you don't really have to be exactly SMART to have it - just less ignorant. You can be stupid and a good person but if you are very ignorant then that could easily include ignorance of others feelings. Which makes it a LOT harder to be a good person. Because that's what's important with morality as far as I'm concerned: Others feelings - empathy.

Empathy is what's important when it comes to morality to me. Pretty much 'end of'. Some people have a greater sense of empathy than others - but it's hard to 'TEACH' - because it's all subjective as I said.

Can be learnt but genetics does play a part I say.

EvF

[dagda]

So, if evil does not exist, what are such things as The Great Leap Forward in which hundreds of thousands if not millions died? I think to say evil does not exist in the human condition is a great cop-out. certain groups tend to think humans are decent and reasonable. Evil actions throughout history get in the way of this absurd notion hence they try and downgrade these actions or, worse, find some bogeyman to blame them on e.g. some element foreign to human progressive thought has taken hold of human sensibility hence these evil acts are counter to human nature.

'do not think the cause of evil is desire either. Because one can desire things that one shouldn't but still have the discipline to not carry out those desires.'

I agree with you partly. I think any person with desires will act on those desires eventually. However, we must have the self-control to act out these desires in moderation. In this way, they can not build up to an evil act (I did say desire is the root cause of all evil, not that all desires are evil).

[Edwardo Piet]

A cop out? Huh?

The reason I don't believe that specifically objective 'Evil' exists is because I know of no evidence whatsoever for that. Everyone has different views on the matter.

However much we may generally SHARE our own concept(s) of evil, we still differ - and there is no evidence of a truly OBJECTIVE 'evil' out there.

That is why I don't believe in objective evil: No evidence.

I do not think desire is the root cause of evil because there are harmless but enjoyable desires too. And desires that are enjoyable for more than one person that people can share - not evil.

Ignorance however although normally the problems it causes are perhaps mild - CAN be very bad.
The ignorance of "faith" - belief without evidence, causes a lot of 'evil' in the world for example. But that is using my own subjective definition of 'evil'. There is no evidence of any OBJECTIVE 'evil' as I said.

EvF

[Kyuuketsuki]

So, if evil does not exist, what are such things as The Great Leap Forward in which hundreds of thousands if not millions died? I think to say evil does not exist in the human condition is a great cop-out.

As Ev has already pretty much said there are bad things, you can call it evil if you wish but it isn't EVIL in the sense of some kind of mystical mumbo jumbo concept ... it's just bad people doing bad things (and sometimes good people doing bad things).

Actually I think have such a mystical idea of evil is the cop out because it removes the specific need for personal responsibility. Let's take everyone's favourite example, the Holocaust.

Hitler is regarded by most as evil ... if he was possessed by an evil force (the mystical mumbo jumbo type of evil you appear to believe in) then he cannot be responsible for his actions because it was the evil and not him who did it but if he did it himself (as I believe he did) he can be held personally responsible.

I reject any and all notions of spiritual evil, I believe that morality is relative and that people can and should be judged against the morality and social standards of the society within which they are understood to have committed the crimes in question (and yes I know that idea carries its own set of problems).

Kyu

[LEDO]

Evil is a word used by those who want power and do so by scaring the masses. I understand that Hitler liked puppies. Does that mean he wasn't pure evil, or he was just evil at times? Does anyone we consider "evil" consider themselves to be evil? Hitler and Stalin both believed they were doing good. Nature kills all the time so other things might live. Sometimes the forces of nature just kill. Does that make nature evil?

[Tiberius]

Evil clearly does not exist on an objective scale. You only have to look at the differing opinions of the world today to see that evil is all subjective. Just like beauty, good, etc.

[Edwardo Piet]

Actually I think have such a mystical idea of evil is the cop out because it removes the specific need for personal responsibility.

I completely, totally and utterly agree with that statement. I discussed the same thing in secularchat.com some weeks ago.

People use the word 'Evil' as a cop-out for not remotely looking into why the 'evil people' did those 'evil things'.

Evil is a very shit word because it's such a cop-out. It's okay to say someone like Hitler was evil (because he was, in the sense he was very very very immoral and a very very bad person) but to simply dismiss it like that like: "He was evil", like "End of discussion" is a cop-out because it's not as simple as that, it's never as simple as that...why? Because like you said Kyu, and I have said too - there is no 'evil FORCE' in the air - it's all subjective.

To JUST dismiss someone or something as 'evil' is a cop-out to actually understanding the roots of the problem and the cause of this (entirely subjective) 'Evil'.

EvF