Hi

[peace2u]

So, a good slap makes women happy.. Did you just get out of the Tardis from the dark ages because that's where your ideology belongs.

It doesn’t make her happy and I didn’t mean it that way but from the observations of human behaviour we know that a show of male physical energy can sometimes bring a woman out of a prolonged bad mood even though this energy may be seemingly directed against her in the form of angry words or a slap (and please do not twist my words my referring to beatings or advocating violence towards women because that’s not the case), provided in this manifestation of energy there is an undercurrent of love and desire for the woman and no real harm is done to the woman.

I recommend you read into the nature of men and women behaviour. You come to know that our feelings, thoughts, emotions and reactions somewhat differ. Once you read into this area hopefully my full explanation of the verse will make sense. As well as, you have to take into account of the marriage principles in Islam from both the husbands and wives perspective.

[Tiberius]

(and please do not twist my words my referring to beatings or advocating violence towards women because that’s not the case)

Stop saying that. Nobody is twisting your words. You are the one who keeps typing things like "sometimes the husband may require to hit her wife". Hitting anyone is considered violence by all civilized cultures. Hitting anyone whilst they are not allowed to hit back (whether through submission or restriction) is considered a beating by all civilized cultures. If you say a husband is sometimes required to hit their wife, then you have two options:

Either in Islam the husband is allowed to beat his wife,
OR Islam is not a civilized religion.

Let's forget your claim that a woman can beat her husband back, because I think that claim is laughable given the relative strengths of women to men, and the fact that Islamic culture is ruled by men. On no occasion should any person be allowed to beat anyone else unless permission is granted from both parties (i.e. a boxing match pretty much needs this to work).

I say that any culture/religion that allows anyone to beat another is not civilized at all, and needs to be discarded.

I recommend you read into the nature of men and women behaviour. You come to know that our feelings, thoughts, emotions and reactions somewhat differ. Once you read into this area hopefully my full explanation of the verse will make sense. As well as, you have to take into account of the marriage principles in Islam from both the husbands and wives perspective.

Nobody is doubting that women and men are different, but perhaps you should try and get a girlfriend at some point to learn about their actual behaviour rather than rely on books. Books cannot teach you how to love someone else.

[Kyuuketsuki]

I've never hit a woman. I always try to follow the examples of my Prophet (PBUH), he never hit any of his wives and his wives never complained about.

So you'd marry, what was it, a nine year old girl like Mohammed reputedly did? You paedophilia?

Kyu

[Sam]

I've never hit a woman. I always try to follow the examples of my Prophet (PBUH), he never hit any of his wives and his wives never complained about.

So you'd marry, what was it, a nine year old girl like Mohammed reputedly did? You paedophilia?

Kyu

Steady on Kyu ...

Segwaying that into a mild acusation of paedophillia doesn't exactly reflect well on the forums (especially from a mod).

It's well documented that around the time the Qur'an was written it was acceptable to marry younger woment, probably because of shorter life-spans etc ... Obviously I am not advocating paedophillia in any way, shape or form and there can be no excuse for it in modern culture ... It just seemed a bit harsh.

Cheers

Sam

[Kyuuketsuki]

Steady on Kyu ...

Segwaying that into a mild acusation of paedophillia doesn't exactly reflect well on the forums (especially from a mod).

It's well documented that around the time the Qur'an was written it was acceptable to marry younger woment, probably because of shorter life-spans etc ... Obviously I am not advocating paedophillia in any way, shape or form and there can be no excuse for it in modern culture ... It just seemed a bit harsh.

Sorry Sam, I can't agree with you because P2U is here and now and is saying he would follow his prophet's example (how he behaved then) here and now and that is simply not acceptable in this day and age ... in that context it doesn't matter a flying fig whether it was acceptable then, it is only important how it is seen now given that the proponent (P2U) says he uses that person as an example.

TBH I think it would reflect WORSE on this forum if we weren't to object to such things.

Kyu

[Sam]

Steady on Kyu ...

Segwaying that into a mild acusation of paedophillia doesn't exactly reflect well on the forums (especially from a mod).

It's well documented that around the time the Qur'an was written it was acceptable to marry younger woment, probably because of shorter life-spans etc ... Obviously I am not advocating paedophillia in any way, shape or form and there can be no excuse for it in modern culture ... It just seemed a bit harsh.

Sorry Sam, I can't agree with you because P2U is here and now and is saying he would follow his prophet's example (how he behaved then) here and now and that is simply not acceptable in this day and age ... in that context it doesn't matter a flying fig whether it was acceptable then, it is only important how it is seen now given that the proponent (P2U) says he uses that person as an example.

TBH I think it would reflect WORSE on this forum if we weren't to object to such things.

Kyu

I accept your viewpoint Kyu,

In a way I'm not arguing with the point your making i.e. that to follow the example of the prophet Mohammed one would have to break modern moral standards (and in extremes such as 'paedophillia' etc ...) I was just a little concerned because it seemed to be as an impartial reader that it was a bit of an outright attack if you will ... maybe coming from a mod it could have been worded better.

Cheers

Sam

[peace2u]

So you'd marry, what was it, a nine year old girl like Mohammed reputedly did? You paedophilia?

I didn't know that my marriage status was a concern to you. Regarding the issue of Prophet Muhammed's (PBUH) marriage to Aisha, i recommend you watch the following video and consider everything that is mentioned.

[youtube]6AjB4dRz0mQ[/youtube]

[Kyuuketsuki]

So you'd marry, what was it, a nine year old girl like Mohammed reputedly did? You paedophilia?

I didn't know that my marriage status was a concern to you. Regarding the issue of Prophet Muhammed's (PBUH) marriage to Aisha, i recommend you watch the following video and consider everything that is mentioned.

OK ... interesting video thank you.

As I understand it his argument was primarily that what is acceptable (morality in essence) varies from culture to culture and across time, that it was different then because lives were shorter so women were considered sexually active younger and so on (presumably men then also "came of age" earlier too). He further cited the Western paedophiles visiting countries with laxer laws on child sex. This is going to shock you ... I agree! Oh sure I still have problems with what they did then but that, I freely admit, is born out of the social morality of my own culture, my own time.

The only thing I had real issue with in the video was his statement that, and correct me if I am wrong here, if any Muslim man (even if he were 50) were to choose to take a young woman as his wife for the purpose of sexual relations and children that is OK by historical/religious precedent. That (even using his own argument, particularly in the earlier parts) is wrong because it clearly depends on the culture within which you live. If he lives in Arabia and the laws support that age for sexual relations then it is acceptable (it isn't actually that simple because Arabia isn't a land where laws tend to be rights-based so laws don't reflect mortality and the UN which is trying to establish a number of standards, including some relating child sex and so on, is trying to set a higher standards in these respects but we'll skip that for now) because that is, as the gentlemen said, their culture (not ours) but that DOES NOT mean that a Muslim man gets that right when he lives in a country that does not grant him that right and in fact says that it is illegal. And that is the point I was making to you, not specifically that Mohammed was a paedophile, but that you said you would follow his example and that he (by our standards in The West, indeed by most civilised countries in the world) would today be considered a paedophile.

So the question P2U is, where do you live?

Kyu

[peace2u]

The only thing I had real issue with in the video was his statement that, and correct me if I am wrong here, if any Muslim man (even if he were 50) were to choose to take a young woman as his wife for the purpose of sexual relations and children that is OK by historical/religious precedent. That (even using his own argument, particularly in the earlier parts) is wrong because it clearly depends on the culture within which you live. If he lives in Arabia and the laws support that age for sexual relations then it is acceptable (it isn't actually that simple because Arabia isn't a land where laws tend to be rights-based so laws don't reflect mortality and the UN which is trying to establish a number of standards, including some relating child sex and so on, is trying to set a higher standards in these respects but we'll skip that for now) because that is, as the gentlemen said, their culture (not ours) but that DOES NOT mean that a Muslim man gets that right when he lives in a country that does not grant him that right and in fact says that it is illegal. And that is the point I was making to you, not specifically that Mohammed was a paedophile, but that you said you would follow his example and that he (by our standards in The West, indeed by most civilised countries in the world) would today be considered a paedophile.

So the question P2U is, where do you live?

Kyu

I currently live in UK. I know that the law for marriage is 16 here, so if I were to marry I would have to marry within this limit and I have no objections to it as I prefer marrying someone my age due to maturity and compatibility issues. When I said that I would try to follow his example it doesn't mean that I have to marry a young girl. If I choose to marry someone older than that is ok and would not be going against his way.

His reason to set the marriage age for men and women to puberty was to avoid problems in the future as it was custom before the pre-Islamic era that young girls before puberty were often married. Also, now in many countries young men and women are married and are involved in pre-marriage sexual relations before the age of puberty. And, as you know, teenagers tend to go through puberty at different age all around the world.

Finally (and this is a bit off the topic), I have travelled a few countries, I have realised that young men and women especially in Islamic and African countries tend to be much more mature and responsible than their counterpart age group in European countries like UK. I have some relatives aged 15, 16 back in my home country and they are twice as much as mature and responsible than many of the UK’s 15, 16 and up to 21 year olds.

[Kyuuketsuki]

I currently live in UK. I know that the law for marriage is 16 here, so if I were to marry I would have to marry within this limit and I have no objections to it as I prefer marrying someone my age due to maturity and compatibility issues. When I said that I would try to follow his example it doesn't mean that I have to marry a young girl. If I choose to marry someone older than that is ok and would not be going against his way.

So you would "follow the examples of your Prophet (PBUH)" in all respects except marriage to underage girls ... is that right?

Kyu