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RE: Pascal's Wager and the Selfishness of a "Good God"
April 18, 2012 at 10:56 am
(This post was last modified: April 18, 2012 at 10:58 am by NoMoreFaith.)
You may need to sort out the quote tags so that your answer can be framed in its current context. Hard to tell where you are responding to be honest.
What pascals wager argues, is that eternal life is preferable to finite life. This in itself is debatable, but we'll let it stand as a truth for now.
However, what the wager does not do, is provide any statement of truth behind the notion of God. Perhaps eternal life is preferable to finite life, but that has no consequence to the truth of the matter.
For instance, if I were to let you know about the jelly fairy who will give world peace on earth, provide beauty and love for an eternal life, and all you have to do is dance naked down the street dancing to mambo no 5 with perfectly executed dance steps (as long as you interpret what hte right dance steps are... obviously). Would you do it?
What have you got to lose? The benefits of what is being offered outweighs being wrong? So why are you still here? Why are you not naked and dancing down the street already? If you don't believe me.. MAKE yourself believe in the jelly fairy.
Oh, wait.. just because you are told something doesn't make it true, even if the rewards are far more preferable to the consequences of being wrong. Even if you could pretend it was true, how do you MAKE yourself believe in something even thou you know its highly improbable, and justify the waste of time trying to interpret the right dance steps for the rest of your life.
Now apply this to God.
Self-authenticating private evidence is useless, because it is indistinguishable from the illusion of it. ― Kel, Kelosophy Blog
If you’re going to watch tele, you should watch Scooby Doo. That show was so cool because every time there’s a church with a ghoul, or a ghost in a school. They looked beneath the mask and what was inside?
The f**king janitor or the dude who runs the waterslide. Throughout history every mystery. Ever solved has turned out to be. Not Magic. ― Tim Minchin, Storm
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RE: Pascal's Wager and the Selfishness of a "Good God"
April 20, 2012 at 9:55 am
(This post was last modified: April 20, 2012 at 10:00 am by sarah888.)
(April 16, 2012 at 3:50 pm)Ace Otana Wrote: (April 16, 2012 at 2:24 pm)sarah888 Wrote: IT makes sense to believe in a higher being we call God then not too.
Sarah[/b]
'God did it' only makes sense when you know nothing of the universe. You lack knowledge, the only thing you do know is religion. So yeah, it's makes sense, but only to you. You're blind to everything else.
You lack wisdom, so with knowledge alone you have nothing.
Science will never prove how the universe started. sorry.
Sarah
(April 18, 2012 at 10:56 am)NoMoreFaith Wrote: You may need to sort out the quote tags so that your answer can be framed in its current context. Hard to tell where you are responding to be honest.
What pascals wager argues, is that eternal life is preferable to finite life. This in itself is debatable, but we'll let it stand as a truth for now.
However, what the wager does not do, is provide any statement of truth behind the notion of God. Perhaps eternal life is preferable to finite life, but that has no consequence to the truth of the matter.
For instance, if I were to let you know about the jelly fairy who will give world peace on earth, provide beauty and love for an eternal life, and all you have to do is dance naked down the street dancing to mambo no 5 with perfectly executed dance steps (as long as you interpret what hte right dance steps are... obviously). Would you do it?
What have you got to lose? The benefits of what is being offered outweighs being wrong? So why are you still here? Why are you not naked and dancing down the street already? If you don't believe me.. MAKE yourself believe in the jelly fairy.
Oh, wait.. just because you are told something doesn't make it true, even if the rewards are far more preferable to the consequences of being wrong. Even if you could pretend it was true, how do you MAKE yourself believe in something even thou you know its highly improbable, and justify the waste of time trying to interpret the right dance steps for the rest of your life.
Now apply this to God. So should I dismiss all of biblical History, because that is what your suggesting. It makes more sense to believe in God and creation rather than hypothosis and or theory. You are not certain there is NO GOD. I know there is. ! and that is no hypothosis.
Sarah
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RE: Pascal's Wager and the Selfishness of a "Good God"
April 20, 2012 at 10:04 am
(April 20, 2012 at 9:55 am)sarah888 Wrote: Science will never prove how the universe started. sorry.
Sarah[/b]
Science may never know how the universe came into being. And so what? This in no way is evidence that "Goddidit!". Because if it is, then I postulate that the universe came about because an alien in another dimension was performing a chemistry experiment which blew up and caused the universe to form.
You have your unsubstantiated theory. I have mine.
And another thought.... what if science is able to figure out how the universe formed? What then? What will you then point to and say, "Well, science can't explain THIS! Obviously, Goddidit!"?
Science flies us to the moon and stars. Religion flies us into buildings.
God allowed 200,000 people to die in an earthquake. So what makes you think he cares about YOUR problems?
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RE: Pascal's Wager and the Selfishness of a "Good God"
April 20, 2012 at 10:19 am
(April 20, 2012 at 10:04 am)Thor Wrote: (April 20, 2012 at 9:55 am)sarah888 Wrote: Science will never prove how the universe started. sorry.
Sarah[/b]
Science may never know how the universe came into being. And so what? This in no way is evidence that "Goddidit!". Because if it is, then I postulate that the universe came about because an alien in another dimension was performing a chemistry experiment which blew up and caused the universe to form.
You have your unsubstantiated theory. I have mine.
And another thought.... what if science is able to figure out how the universe formed? What then? What will you then point to and say, "Well, science can't explain THIS! Obviously, Goddidit!"?
Biblical History is no Theory, you are showing your intelligence level now. Science never will explain or figure it out, as they cant explain any phenomenon, along with medical science. No miracles, medical, etc. will ever be explained.
NDE will never be explained, and why do they all see the after-life, why doesnt anyone ever see the circus.
Sarah
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RE: Pascal's Wager and the Selfishness of a "Good God"
April 20, 2012 at 10:22 am
Please don't take offence at this, but I have to ask. Are you okay?... you know, mentally?
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RE: Pascal's Wager and the Selfishness of a "Good God"
April 20, 2012 at 10:39 am
(This post was last modified: April 20, 2012 at 10:45 am by NoMoreFaith.)
(April 20, 2012 at 10:19 am)sarah888 Wrote: Biblical History is no Theory, you are showing your intelligence level now.
You should write up all the evidence for biblical history, get it published and stun the world.
Good luck with that endeavour.
Quote:Science never will explain or figure it out, as they cant explain any phenomenon
You know what phenomenon is that has been explained by Science? Oh wait.. thats what Scientific knowledge IS.
Quote:No miracles, medical, etc. will ever be explained.
NDE will never be explained, and why do they all see the after-life,
Listen to yourself. Assert assert assert. You think that throughout history has been full of people saying "you will never explain.. " "you'll never explain".. over and over again, they've been proven to be wrong.
The question is more sensibly, what makes you so arrogant to believe that your assertions are any more sensible than any other historical assertion of "you'll never explain..."
Quote:why doesnt anyone ever see the circus.
Maybe you should be asking, why do people see things only consistent with their own experiences.
For instances, christians seeing a white beardy Jesus. You must know that is a anachronism for the region.
More to the point, when experiencing events which only draw on known experiences, why is hallucination during a period of great physical stress not more likely than NDE.
The fact is, you desperately WANT to believe in these things, you're not interested in reading the neuroscience, or .. hell.. any science.
All science does, is try to explain the world. All you want to do is deny explanation to preserve a need for magic in your life.
Self-authenticating private evidence is useless, because it is indistinguishable from the illusion of it. ― Kel, Kelosophy Blog
If you’re going to watch tele, you should watch Scooby Doo. That show was so cool because every time there’s a church with a ghoul, or a ghost in a school. They looked beneath the mask and what was inside?
The f**king janitor or the dude who runs the waterslide. Throughout history every mystery. Ever solved has turned out to be. Not Magic. ― Tim Minchin, Storm
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RE: Pascal's Wager and the Selfishness of a "Good God"
April 20, 2012 at 10:46 am
(April 20, 2012 at 10:39 am)NoMoreFaith Wrote: (April 20, 2012 at 10:19 am)sarah888 Wrote: Biblical History is no Theory, you are showing your intelligence level now.
You should write up all the evidence for biblical history, get it published and stun the world.
Good luck with that endeavour.
Quote:Science never will explain or figure it out, as they cant explain any phenomenon
You know what phenomenon is that has been explained by Science? Oh wait.. thats what Science IS.
Quote:No miracles, medical, etc. will ever be explained.
NDE will never be explained, and why do they all see the after-life,
Listen to yourself. Assert assert assert. You think that throughout history has been full of people saying "you will never explain.. " "you'll never explain".. over and over again, they've been proven to be wrong.
The question is more sensibly, what makes you so arrogant to believe that your assertions are any more sensible than any other historical assertion of "you'll never explain..."
Quote:why doesnt anyone ever see the circus.
Maybe you should be asking, why do people see things only consistent with their own experiences.
For instances, christians seeing a white beardy Jesus. You must know that is a anachronism for the region.
More to the point, when experiencing events which only draw on known experiences, why is hallucination during a period of great physical stress not more likely than NDE.
The fact is, you desperately WANT to believe in these things, you're not interested in reading the neuroscience, or .. hell.. any science.
All science does, is try to explain the world. All you want to do is deny explanation to preserve a need for magic in your life.
Jesus Life and death fulfilled ancient scriptures that all Historians agree existed before His time,(FACT) that almost all the apostles were martyred for their faith (FACT)that Christianity spread like wildfire despite horrendous persecution. Study the writings of the earliest Christians, who were defending Christianity in a pagan world that was largely hostile to their beliefs (sound familiar?).
Sarah
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RE: Pascal's Wager and the Selfishness of a "Good God"
April 20, 2012 at 10:51 am
Wow. You've really taken a large gulp of the kool-aid there. By the way... just so you know... large and bold do not make something more true. It's more like you are getting shrill. Stop that.
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RE: Pascal's Wager and the Selfishness of a "Good God"
April 20, 2012 at 10:54 am
(April 16, 2012 at 1:52 am)genkaus Wrote: Fundies aren't exactly known for new and groundbreaking arguments.
You can't come up with anything new in a field where there's no discoveries to be made.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: Pascal's Wager and the Selfishness of a "Good God"
April 20, 2012 at 10:55 am
(This post was last modified: April 20, 2012 at 11:08 am by sarah888.)
(April 20, 2012 at 10:39 am)NoMoreFaith Wrote: (April 20, 2012 at 10:19 am)sarah888 Wrote: Biblical History is no Theory, you are showing your intelligence level now.
You should write up all the evidence for biblical history, get it published and stun the world.
Good luck with that endeavour.
Fact --- Jesus Life and death fulfilled ancient scriptures that all historians agree existed before His time; that almost all the apostles were martyred for their faith; that Christianity spread like wildfire despite horrendous persecution. Study the writings of the earliest Christians, who were defending Christianity in a pagan world that was largely hostile to their beliefs (sound familiar?).
Quote:Science never will explain or figure it out, as they cant explain any phenomenon
You know what phenomenon is that has been explained by Science? Oh wait.. thats what Scientific knowledge IS.
Explain, show me ONE phenomenon that has been discovered
by science that was theory.?
Quote:No miracles, medical, etc. will ever be explained.
NDE will never be explained, and why do they all see the after-life,
Listen to yourself. Assert assert assert. You think that throughout history has been full of people saying "you will never explain.. " "you'll never explain".. over and over again, they've been proven to be wrong.
[/b]Prove it, why cant NDE's, Medical miracles, etc. etc. etc be explained by your scientist. Again the I dont know theory applies.
The question is more sensibly, what makes you so arrogant to believe that your assertions are any more sensible than any other historical assertion of "you'll never explain..."
My assertions come from history and faith, they are not assertions, but beliefs and facts.
Quote:why doesnt anyone ever see the circus.
Maybe you should be asking, why do people see things only consistent with their own experiences.
For instances, christians seeing a white beardy Jesus. You must know that is a anachronism for the region.
Why would a Jew or musilum see the afterlife, why would anyone who goes through this experience see anything else but that specific occurance. ???WHY. I know .. YOU DONT KNOW.!
More to the point, when experiencing events which only draw on known experiences, why is hallucination during a period of great physical stress not more likely than NDE.
The fact is, you desperately WANT to believe in these things, you're not interested in reading the neuroscience, or .. hell.. any science.
[b]science does not speak regarding all of history,
only explains theory and hypothosis regardless of any
topic.
All science does, is try to explain the world. All you want to do is deny explanation to preserve a need for magic in your life.
yep. that is real nice.
(April 20, 2012 at 10:55 am)sarah888 Wrote: (April 20, 2012 at 10:39 am)NoMoreFaith Wrote: (April 20, 2012 at 10:19 am)sarah888 Wrote: Biblical History is no Theory, you are showing your intelligence level now.
You should write up all the evidence for biblical history, get it published and stun the world.
Good luck with that endeavour.
Fact --- Jesus Life and death fulfilled ancient scriptures that all historians agree existed before His time; that almost all the apostles were martyred for their faith; that Christianity spread like wildfire despite horrendous persecution. Study the writings of the earliest Christians, who were defending Christianity in a pagan world that was largely hostile to their beliefs (sound familiar?).
Quote:Science never will explain or figure it out, as they cant explain any phenomenon
You know what phenomenon is that has been explained by Science? Oh wait.. thats what Scientific knowledge IS.
Explain, show me ONE phenomenon that has been discovered
by science that was theory.?
Quote:No miracles, medical, etc. will ever be explained.
NDE will never be explained, and why do they all see the after-life,
Listen to yourself. Assert assert assert. You think that throughout history has been full of people saying "you will never explain.. " "you'll never explain".. over and over again, they've been proven to be wrong.
[/b]Prove it, why cant NDE's, Medical miracles, etc. etc. etc be explained by your scientist. Again the I dont know theory applies.
The question is more sensibly, what makes you so arrogant to believe that your assertions are any more sensible than any other historical assertion of "you'll never explain..."
My assertions come from history and faith, they are not assertions, but beliefs and facts.
Quote:why doesnt anyone ever see the circus.
Maybe you should be asking, why do people see things only consistent with their own experiences.
For instances, christians seeing a white beardy Jesus. You must know that is a anachronism for the region.
Why would a Jew or musilum see the afterlife, why would anyone who goes through this experience see anything else but that specific occurance. ???WHY. I know .. YOU DONT KNOW.!
More to the point, when experiencing events which only draw on known experiences, why is hallucination during a period of great physical stress not more likely than NDE.[b] Because when your hallucinating your brain is still alive when your experiencing NDE your brain is shut off at that point according to science your brain is dead. the person has no vital signs. Big Difference. Lets use your example when people hallucinate they all do not experience the same thing or dream. big difference..
The fact is, you desperately WANT to believe in these things, you're not interested in reading the neuroscience, or .. hell.. any science.
science does not speak regarding all of history,
only explains theory and hypothosis regardless of any
topic Science will never explain because they cannot, as they have no explanation, and that is
not good enough. .
All science does, is try to explain the world. All you want to do is deny explanation to preserve a need for magic in your life.
Science does not explain the world, they hypothosise, they have no facts on anything regarding creation, etc, etc, etc,
they have no explanation on phenomenon, etc etc etc. HISTORY is a Fact. Miracles are a FACT. NDE'S are a Fact,
which science fails to explain because they cant.
Sarah
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