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RE: Where's the justice?
May 21, 2012 at 8:43 pm
(May 21, 2012 at 5:57 pm)Ace Otana Wrote: I'll have to find out if it was god or I'm simply hallucinating. I'll stick to simple explanations till there is evidence for the complex. Occam's razer. Occam's razor cuts both ways. In that more often than not, one assumes that all things are indeed equal when one does not take the time to explore anything outside of the philosophy or theory he has already adopted for himself. Therefore leading the fool to cut everything out of his tightly closed mind that he does not already accept.
Quote:Separation from an incompetent fool sounds rather nice to be honest.
Which is why Hell is there. For people like you who do not want to spend an eternity with God. God will not drag you into His presents kicking and screaming. If you or others like you do not want to be with God for eternity then you are seperated from Him for eternity.
Quote:Seems more like he's painting a picture/describing of what he saw in his over active imagination.
Which coincides with other prophesies about that same time period.
Quote: I'll apply Occam's razor and use the simpler explanation.
Because you simply do not know any better. How can I say this? Because you have not researched any of the other prophesies concerning what is being discussed otherwise your attention would have been directed else where. Occam's razor only pertains to one who has ALL The information made available, and then an informed decision is to be made. Not what you have demonstrated in this thread a half a dozen times now. where anything outside of your scope is quickly dismissed.
Quote:Great lengths? I thought god was all powerful?
God is the God of the Natural world. Why would The God who set up all of these natural processes work around them everytime He wanted something done? It would stand to reason that the God who instituted Natural Law would also use Natural law to accomplish His objectives. Hence the "effort" put fourth to secure your potential attonement.
Quote: Also if his plan isn't working so well and that more and more have considered the whole religious thing to be complete nonsense, perhaps he didn't think things through?
Why would you think "His plan" isn't working so well?
Quote: A sign of incompetence perhaps? Surely being all knowing he'd know of a better way to deal with things?
To make that assumption one must completely understand the objective of God. So please enlighten me. what was God's objective that got so out of hand that you got to deem Him "incompetent?"
Quote:Why would you?
I wouldn't, because IF God could not be trusted to tell us His plan for atonement or if His plan for atonement was a lie, and atheist got into Heaven then In turn God could not be trusted to accurately describe Heaven or Hell.
Quote: Oh wait, dah bubble says so!
Oh, dear it seems as if someone got lost in the discussion.
Quote:Also the question is irrelevant to me. I don't believe in god.
It's your question!!! You instituted the parameters of this discussion and now you pulled out of it when your logic fails? Otana's razor right? "If all things being equal and "my logic fails" bail on the question."
Quote:Didn't say I did. The question is meaningless. I simply stated that "what if god did allow both theists and atheists? That's all.
Are you not an Atheist? Would you not benefit from this arrangement? If all Atheist were forced into Heaven would you want to be with God, even if you did not believe in God? again your discussion, not mine.
Quote:Just curious of theist's response. Apparently you seem to dislike the idea, not sure why.
Apparently you do not understand what you are asking.
If God side steps the bible then nothing we know about God is true. At this point "god" could be the machines and Heaven could be the Matrix. If God is not who He says He is in the bible, then Heaven is not what you think it is either, meaning it is a place you'd wouldn't want to go.
Aside from that i do not care who is in Heaven. That is why i am taking the time to answer your questions.
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RE: Where's the justice?
May 21, 2012 at 9:59 pm
(May 21, 2012 at 3:37 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: (May 21, 2012 at 3:00 pm)Godschild Wrote: Prove your statement, use the posts I've made and not your deluded made up little boy ideas of what I've said.
Sure. Read through your whole statement, I know this will take you a while as your reading is likely at "Dr. Seuss" level so don't worry, I'll wait...
...
...
...
Done? Awesome. Now if you'd be so kind I'd like you to direct me to an example of spiritual justice you can prove happened and have evidence for so that we can establish this isn't a bullshit term you can pretty much define how you like.
Bible quotes will get you laughed at, just sayin'. :-)
Duch setup prisons in Cambodia, in those prisons thousands upon tens of thousands were tortured and murdered, Duch is directly responsible for all this horror. When the Vietnamese came into the country to stop the horror, Duch disappeared, hiding out for many years. During this time he was hiding in refugee camps and in one particular camp he came to know a Christian pastor, Duch later accepted Christ as his savior and worked in the church for years. He was eventually caught and put on trial, the Pastor who befriended him testified at his trial, telling the judges that he forgave him and loved him even though Duch was responsible for killing part of the Pastors family, the Pastor did believe that Duch should have to pay for the atrocities he caused. In the end the court gave this man 35 years and the time he had already spent in prison lessened to time to about 25 years. Here is a story of human justice that does not come close to being just, Duch should have had to spent the rest of his life in prison. The spiritual justice here, if he really has accepted Christ as his savior and repented, God will not see his sin because of Christ and as the Father promised Duch will be in heaven.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Where's the justice?
May 22, 2012 at 3:51 am
(This post was last modified: May 22, 2012 at 5:27 am by Ace Otana.)
Quote:Occam's razor cuts both ways. In that more often than not, one assumes that all things are indeed equal when one does not take the time to explore anything outside of the philosophy or theory he has already adopted for himself. Therefore leading the fool to cut everything out of his tightly closed mind that he does not already accept.
FFS, do you actually know what Occam's razer is? Ok, I'll give you a quick lesson. If you have two explanations, go for the simpler one. Use the explanation with the fewest assumptions. Keep things simple and do not multiply entities without necessity. That is Occam's razer.
So for example, someone claims there is a god and he spoke to him, the simple explanation with the fewest assumptions is most likely correct, which is he is mistaken. I have no idea where you got this 'equal' thing.
Take a good look through this - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...Theory.svg
It may help.
Quote:Which is why Hell is there. For people like you who do not want to spend an eternity with God. God will not drag you into His presents kicking and screaming. If you or others like you do not want to be with God for eternity then you are seperated from Him for eternity.
That's cool, always wanted to drive to hell with the devil.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JSIVBgDN...H8ufOavkVg
Quote:Because you simply do not know any better. How can I say this? Because you have not researched any of the other prophesies concerning what is being discussed otherwise your attention would have been directed else where.
Yeah, the whole 'you just don't know'. Ok, I'm going to clear this up for you. Christians disagree with each other all the time. You all seem to have your own version of Christianity. Some of you think there is a lake of fire, some don't. Some believe Christians are as likely to end up in hell as atheists and some others don't. Some Christians also believe atheists go to heaven and some like yourself don't. You see, no matter WHAT! I cannot satisfy you in any way possible! You have your own little version of Christianity like every other Christian. Some Christians don't think god is all knowing or all powerful.
Now -
So you have evidence of your claims then? I guess I'll have to explain Occam's razer to you again. Stick to the simple until there is evidence for the complex. You're making a lot of assumptions and no evidence to back it up. So using Occam's razer I'll stick with the simpler and most likely explanation, which is you are mistaken.
Quote: Occam's razor only pertains to one who has ALL The information made available, and then an informed decision is to be made. Not what you have demonstrated in this thread a half a dozen times now. where anything outside of your scope is quickly dismissed.
Wrong yet again. That's not Occam's razer.
Also I'll dismiss extraordinary claims that lack credibility, explanatory power and evidence. Your beliefs lack all three. Also I'm using logic and sticking to known entities. What is known is that religious men have throughout history made wild claims without proof. Delusions are something to greatly consider. What is not known is god, heaven/hell.
It's logical procedure to use known entities to explain unknown entities. So with Occam's razer I'll stick to the most likely explanation that you are mistaken. Simple.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaSqH8lhB0M
Quote:God is the God of the Natural world. Why would The God who set up all of these natural processes work around them everytime He wanted something done? It would stand to reason that the God who instituted Natural Law would also use Natural law to accomplish His objectives. Hence the "effort" put fourth to secure your potential attonement.
Really? So the whole great lengths thing means fuck all? Being all powerful after all. Can you prove any of this?
Quote:Why would you think "His plan" isn't working so well?
Well unless cancer, starvation, small worms that eat their way into children's eyes in Africa causing intense pain and leading to blindness........is part of his plan? Not a good job from a being that is infinitely powerful.
Quote:To make that assumption one must completely understand the objective of God. So please enlighten me.
It's down to logic. If god is all loving, all knowing and all powerful, then why is there so much disaster in the world? Either he's malicious, incompetent or isn't all powerful. Take your pick.
You do realise he's guilty of the immorals of inaction? No one ever thinks little of him. But if a person was guilty of inaction, he'd be hated throughout the community. Like for example, a child drowning in a swimming pool and the only adult there who knows what's happening refuses to help the child in any way. Despite having the power to save the child, he instead watches him drown. That is immoral inaction. It's a moral obligation.
Quote:I wouldn't, because IF God could not be trusted to tell us His plan for atonement or if His plan for atonement was a lie, and atheist got into Heaven then In turn God could not be trusted to accurately describe Heaven or Hell.
All this because god allows atheists in to heaven. Though you won't say it, you don't like it. You're trying you're best to make up excuses.
Quote:It's your question!!! You instituted the parameters of this discussion and now you pulled out of it when your logic fails? Otana's razor right? "If all things being equal and "my logic fails" bail on the question."
A question for theists, since they believe in god. No point asking an atheist "Why would you want to be with this being" or whatever. The question for me is pointless. Because from my point of view, god does not exist. The question asks "how would you feel if atheists went to heaven". Pointless for an atheist to answer.
Quote:Are you not an Atheist? Would you not benefit from this arrangement? If all Atheist were forced into Heaven would you want to be with God, even if you did not believe in God? again your discussion, not mine.
Just asking how you'd feel about it, like I said above, the question would be pointless for an atheist. It's your god and the last time I checked, atheists don't have a god. Also I didn't say "forced", I said "allowed". Big difference between forced and allowed. You do seem to be showing dislike to the idea of atheists going to heaven, it's just you won't admit it.
Quote:Apparently you do not understand what you are asking.
And you don't seem to get Occam's razer.
Quote:If God side steps the bible then nothing we know about God is true. At this point "god" could be the machines and Heaven could be the Matrix. If God is not who He says He is in the bible, then Heaven is not what you think it is either, meaning it is a place you'd wouldn't want to go.
Oh? What if the bible was mostly accurate but wrong in some parts? Perhaps the bible was wrong about atheists going to hell, perhaps it was completely wrong about everything. Perhaps every religion in the world got it wrong. Perhaps there is no afterlife for any of us. I'm just going to stick to known entities on this. Logical procedure.
Quote:Aside from that i do not care who is in Heaven. That is why i am taking the time to answer your questions.
I think you do based on your responses. Good day old chap.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan
Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.
Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.
You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
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RE: Where's the justice?
May 22, 2012 at 9:05 am
(May 21, 2012 at 4:44 pm)Drich Wrote: Quote:Why? Your god as he sounds already seems sadistic.
The definition of sadism i am using here means to take pleasure from extreme cruelty. By definition God is not sadistic because of the extreme lengths He went to procure your atonement, to which all you have to do is accept it. Sadism would have God give the illusion of atonement or "heaven" by some standard and then take it away simply to watch those who have strive to obtain that goal suffer. This is not what is happening here. Why does everything ALWAYS have to be about your god?
Our existence, our lives, our trials and tribulations, our notion of choice according to you, is all but a cruel divine joke devised by an almighty self-absorbed cretin.
Why aren't we allowed to live out peaceful hard-working lives without your egoistical egomaniacal deity?
Why did he force this plan of atonement upon us that failure to comply with results in automatic Hell with no appeal?
Why can't we just simply experience Heaven without your god?
Why is he so damn selfish and self serving to make all of mankind fulfill no greater purpose than just exalting, glorifying and worshipping him constantly? Which he already is by legions of angels anyway?
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RE: Where's the justice?
May 22, 2012 at 11:06 am
(May 21, 2012 at 1:33 pm)Welsh cake Wrote: (May 20, 2012 at 3:09 am)Polaris Wrote: Well that is where I disagree with that system. Screw parole for a minute. You don't think that the high-profile cases, the ones with overwhelming evidence to prosecute, the most exceptional and abominable crimes against humanity, hundreds to thousands, or thousands to millions of innocents killed, deserve the death penalty?
No. I even disagreed with killing Osama...the cheering over his death especially so. I also disagreed with the people who watched with joy as Sadaam was hung.
But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from all sin.
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RE: Where's the justice?
May 22, 2012 at 4:00 pm
(This post was last modified: May 22, 2012 at 4:10 pm by Reforged.)
(May 21, 2012 at 9:59 pm)Godschild Wrote: (May 21, 2012 at 3:37 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: Sure. Read through your whole statement, I know this will take you a while as your reading is likely at "Dr. Seuss" level so don't worry, I'll wait...
...
...
...
Done? Awesome. Now if you'd be so kind I'd like you to direct me to an example of spiritual justice you can prove happened and have evidence for so that we can establish this isn't a bullshit term you can pretty much define how you like.
Bible quotes will get you laughed at, just sayin'. :-)
Duch setup prisons in Cambodia, in those prisons thousands upon tens of thousands were tortured and murdered, Duch is directly responsible for all this horror. When the Vietnamese came into the country to stop the horror, Duch disappeared, hiding out for many years. During this time he was hiding in refugee camps and in one particular camp he came to know a Christian pastor, Duch later accepted Christ as his savior and worked in the church for years. He was eventually caught and put on trial, the Pastor who befriended him testified at his trial, telling the judges that he forgave him and loved him even though Duch was responsible for killing part of the Pastors family, the Pastor did believe that Duch should have to pay for the atrocities he caused. In the end the court gave this man 35 years and the time he had already spent in prison lessened to time to about 25 years. Here is a story of human justice that does not come close to being just, Duch should have had to spent the rest of his life in prison. The spiritual justice here, if he really has accepted Christ as his savior and repented, God will not see his sin because of Christ and as the Father promised Duch will be in heaven.
Sorry, what part of the Pastor using his position to pervert the course of justice because Duch decided to convert would be considered spiritually just? Oh, that was it?
Yeah, well done.
You haven't altered the meaning of justice to suit your purposes then added "spiritual" on the begining at all.
Seriously man, you must have some really twisted, dark shit in your past to want to believe that. I don't know what you want to believe you're going to be forgiven for so desperately but the only person you're fooling is yourself.
Deal with it.
"That is not dead which can eternal lie and with strange aeons even death may die."
- Abdul Alhazred.
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RE: Where's the justice?
May 22, 2012 at 4:24 pm
(May 22, 2012 at 11:06 am)Polaris Wrote: No. I even disagreed with killing Osama...the cheering over his death especially so. Hah, I say good riddance to bad rubbish. I'm happy the fucker's in oblivion. I'd piss over his grave after he masterminded 9/11 with his fucking "holy war" bullshit.
Quote:I also disagreed with the people who watched with joy as Sadaam was hung.
People who murder forfeit all human rights in my book.
Your "system" means I have to work harder and pay taxes to support fucking parasites, disgusting loathsome burdens on society who don't deserve to live. They're mad dogs who need to be put down.
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RE: Where's the justice?
May 22, 2012 at 5:32 pm
(May 22, 2012 at 4:24 pm)Welsh cake Wrote: (May 22, 2012 at 11:06 am)Polaris Wrote: No. I even disagreed with killing Osama...the cheering over his death especially so. Hah, I say good riddance to bad rubbish. I'm happy the fucker's in oblivion. I'd piss over his grave after he masterminded 9/11 with his fucking "holy war" bullshit.
Quote:I also disagreed with the people who watched with joy as Sadaam was hung.
People who murder forfeit all human rights in my book.
Your "system" means I have to work harder and pay taxes to support fucking parasites, disgusting loathsome burdens on society who don't deserve to live. They're mad dogs who need to be put down.
They're still human.
But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from all sin.
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RE: Where's the justice?
May 22, 2012 at 5:33 pm
(This post was last modified: May 22, 2012 at 5:34 pm by Reforged.)
(May 22, 2012 at 5:32 pm)Polaris Wrote: (May 22, 2012 at 4:24 pm)Welsh cake Wrote: Hah, I say good riddance to bad rubbish. I'm happy the fucker's in oblivion. I'd piss over his grave after he masterminded 9/11 with his fucking "holy war" bullshit.
People who murder forfeit all human rights in my book.
Your "system" means I have to work harder and pay taxes to support fucking parasites, disgusting loathsome burdens on society who don't deserve to live. They're mad dogs who need to be put down.
They're still human.
So? So was Hitler, Stalin, Fritzle. Why should it matter what species they are?
"That is not dead which can eternal lie and with strange aeons even death may die."
- Abdul Alhazred.
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RE: Where's the justice?
May 22, 2012 at 5:37 pm
(May 22, 2012 at 5:33 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: (May 22, 2012 at 5:32 pm)Polaris Wrote: They're still human.
So? So was Hitler, Stalin, Fritzle. Why should it matter what species they are?
Just because someone committed crimes, does not mean we must trade in our humanity to see that vengeance is served.
But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from all sin.
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