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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
August 25, 2012 at 11:09 pm
(August 25, 2012 at 10:13 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: [quote='Lion IRC' pid='327049' dateline='1345944464']
Pointing out to someone that they stand in direct conflict with the prevailing, majority, expert, informed opinion on a given matter is NOT a logical fallacy per se.
It is simply a challenge put upon that person to demonstrate why THEIR opinion is a more reasonable position than that of the experts by whom they are out-numbered.
And you cannot excuse yourself from that challenge by simply chanting "logical fallacy/appeal to authoritylogical fallacy/appeal to authoritylogical fallacy/appeal to authority" over and over again like some get-out-of-jail-free card.
How about the Jesus mythers step away from the logical fallacy auto-cue screen and get stuck into the hard details of the prevailing, majority, expert position instead?
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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
August 25, 2012 at 11:19 pm
(This post was last modified: August 25, 2012 at 11:26 pm by Tea Earl Grey Hot.)
(August 25, 2012 at 11:09 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: (August 25, 2012 at 10:13 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: [quote='Lion IRC' pid='327049' dateline='1345944464']
Pointing out to someone that they stand in direct conflict with the prevailing, majority, expert, informed opinion on a given matter is NOT a logical fallacy per se.
...
It is if you think you proven your opponent wrong simply by saying the majority disagrees, which is what you and your buddy did. Mythicist are well aware they're in the minority.
Quote:It is simply a challenge put upon that person to demonstrate why THEIR opinion is a more reasonable position than that of the experts by whom they are out-numbered.
Which is fine, but it was originally used as a dismissal here, not a challenge.
Quote:And you cannot excuse yourself from that challenge by simply chanting "logical fallacy/appeal to authoritylogical fallacy/appeal to authoritylogical fallacy/appeal to authority" over and over again like some get-out-of-jail-free card.
We can't just let fallacies slide, especially when such a basic one was made a central argument.
Quote:How about the Jesus mythers step away from the logical fallacy auto-cue screen and get stuck into the hard details of the prevailing, majority, expert position instead?
That's fine. Just stop committing fallacies please.
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"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
August 25, 2012 at 11:28 pm
(August 25, 2012 at 10:42 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Oh this is going to be so painful...
Indeed. Here we go again.
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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
August 25, 2012 at 11:30 pm
Quote:How about the Jesus mythers step away from the logical fallacy auto-cue screen and get stuck into the hard details of the prevailing, majority, expert position instead?
I keep asking for those hard details and they are never forthcoming. All Ehrman does is point to his fucking gospels and epistles and this after demonstrating that they are all bullshit.
You'll forgive me if I am not too impressed by his "evidence." All we have are copies of copies of copies.... but we have no fucking idea what the originals said.... if they said anything at all.
I keep waiting for evidence but never expect to see it.
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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
August 25, 2012 at 11:37 pm
(This post was last modified: August 25, 2012 at 11:38 pm by Lion IRC.)
(August 25, 2012 at 11:19 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: (August 25, 2012 at 11:09 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: Pointing out to someone that they stand in direct conflict with the prevailing, majority, expert, informed opinion on a given matter is NOT a logical fallacy per se.
...
It is if you think you proven your opponent wrong simply by saying the majority disagrees, which is what you and your buddy did...
Show me where I said...Jesus mythers are wrong SOLELY by virtue of the fact that they are in the minority.
Please be sure to use "quotation marks".
Can ya do that for me?
You made a claim. Now prove it. (Hint - use evidence)
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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
August 25, 2012 at 11:37 pm
(This post was last modified: August 25, 2012 at 11:47 pm by Tea Earl Grey Hot.)
(August 25, 2012 at 11:28 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: (August 25, 2012 at 10:42 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Oh this is going to be so painful...
Indeed. Here we go again.
wwwweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
(August 25, 2012 at 11:37 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: (August 25, 2012 at 11:19 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: It is if you think you proven your opponent wrong simply by saying the majority disagrees, which is what you and your buddy did...
Show me where I said...Jesus mythers are wrong SOLELY by virtue of the fact that they are in the minority.
Please be sure to use "quotation marks".
Can ya do that for me?
You made a claim. Now prove it. (Hint - use evidence)
Here's what Atom (whom you defended) said that really set me off:
Quote:I think I'm on more solid ground appealing to a near unanimity of peer reviewed academic scholars on the testimony of Bart Ehrman as a hostile witness than you are citing yourself as your own authority.
Another quote of Atom
Quote:Making the case for Jesus' historical existence is an involved topic that starts with the presentation of data supported by the academic consensus. If the significance or existence of the academic consensus on all such data is denied, there is no point in presenting more such data.
You then replied to Atom's quote about standing on solid ground with this "  " and then compared mythicist to other nutty (my opinion) groups:
Quote:"Jesus mythers and holocaust deniers and fake moon landing folk are interesting and quaint."
You then said that people who go against the majority are acting "illogically" because they're going against the majority:
Quote:In fact, if 99% of experts on a given subject agreed, then ignoring that fact would make YOU the person acting illogically for rejecting their expertise.
That's an appeal to majority fallacy right there. You would be acting "illogically" because you went against the majority. You said it.
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"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
August 26, 2012 at 7:41 am
If you're going to "challenge" the mythicist's criticisms then you can present the evidence. WTF is with this spattering of bullshit recently?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
August 26, 2012 at 11:35 am
Hey Atom, why do the epistles consistently reject the idea of a physical Christ?
Galatians 1:11,12
For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man's gospel. For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 3:4,5
4When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.
Hebrews 1:1-4
Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
One question: how can they turn a blind eye to our Lord's one/three year ministry? The list of ignorant verses goes on and on, but I'm on my phone right now so it's kind of tedious copying and pasting examples.
Another thing: if you actually read your Bible, you would be familiar with Paul's wording. Why does he love saying that the mysteries of Christ Jesus have been revealed through the prophets (OT) and the Spirit? What's so mysterious about a one/three year ministry (which Paul never bothers to mention, even when he gives himself a chance as shown above with Galatians)?
Maybe you don't understand what the fathers of your cult truly believed in.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
August 26, 2012 at 4:22 pm
(August 26, 2012 at 11:35 am)FallentoReason Wrote: Hey Atom, why do the epistles consistently reject the idea of a physical Christ? Because at the time of their writing Jesus had already been crucified. I'm not sure why this would seem odd to you. Can you clarify what you think is significant about the verses you quoted.
Quote:One question: how can they turn a blind eye to our Lord's one/three year ministry?
[/quote ]
This question doesn't make sense in terms of the biblical chronology. They didn't have to turn a blind eye. Where did you get the idea that Jesus' ministry could have been 1 year? That's a rather unique assessment.
Quote:The list of ignorant verses goes on and on...
What do you regard as ignorant in these verses?
Another thing: if you actually read your Bible, you would be familiar with Paul's wording.
I read it and perhaps know it better then you think.
Quote:Why does he love saying that the mysteries of Christ Jesus have been revealed through the prophets (OT) and the Spirit? What's so mysterious about a one/three year ministry (which Paul never bothers to mention, even when he gives himself a chance as shown above with Galatians)?
Jesus said some pretty mysterious things such as predicting his resurrection, that the Pharisees were wrong about all their rules (such as how many steps a person could walk on the Sabbath), that he was speaking for God, and that the Holy Spirit would guide his followers. The Jews believed that the Christ would be a military leader. Instead, they found that he was much more than that. The references to the Profits are talking about prophecies such as Isiahi 53. Paul's letters spend a tremendous amount of time talking about Jesus and his ministry.
Quote:Maybe you don't understand what the fathers of your cult truly believed in.
You seem confident that you understand. Are you a credentialed scholar of higher criticism?
Christianity is grounded in history, the facts of science, the rules of logic, and verifiable biblical truths.
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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
August 26, 2012 at 4:30 pm
(August 26, 2012 at 7:41 am)Rhythm Wrote: If you're going to "challenge" the mythicist's criticisms then you can present the evidence. WTF is with this spattering of bullshit recently?
It comes when there are too many jesus freak assholes in one place.
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