No need to avoid sinning, all is forgiven?

[Drich]

How can I deny something I genuinely don't believe exists? Besides if the promise is heaven then I'll pass. Remember, I don't want to go to some afterlife.

Which is exactly why God has hidden Himself from you. Because if you were staring down the barrel of eternity with Heaven on one side and the eternal pit of hell on the other this choice would not be possiable. It your actions/choice would be a matter of self preservation and not a reflection of whether or not you wanted to be with God.

Really? I've had religion in my face from an early age. Listened to preachers, even joined a boy's brigade. I've given it careful thought and genuinely looked into personal feelings, and after all that I'm STILL an atheist. Just because you're easily convinced doesn't mean I am. So far I've seen insufficient reason to believe in any of it.
Remember, it's the claim I'm challenging, not god. Seeing as I don't believe god even exists.

If you did If you knew without doubt god existed could you have made your same choice about spending an eternity with God in Heaven?

Some atheists were once strong believers and for many years. They notice how much of a lie it is and walk away.

There are many lies in religion. what most people do not understand is God is just as much against 'religion' as most atheists. Religion and God are two very different things.

Just because people don't believe in the same stuff you do does not mean they're ignorant or just don't understand.

without doubt I know this, that is why I do not thump people with my bible. Everything I do or say to any of you is based off of your own questions. I am not here to force change on anyone. just to facilitate it when and where it is wanted.

[Ace Otana]

Which is exactly why God has hidden Himself from you. Because if you were staring down the barrel of eternity with Heaven on one side and the eternal pit of hell on the other this choice would not be possiable. It your actions/choice would be a matter of self preservation and not a reflection of whether or not you wanted to be with God.

It's nothing to do with wanting to be with god or not, I just don't believe there is one. There may be a god out there, perhaps entirely different from what you think he is. Perhaps you miss understood him but accepts you anyway. There could be a god that despises us all for one reason or another. Thing is, for me I prefer to just live my life, help others and reach personal goals. If there is a god, then there is, and if there is no god then that's that. I want to know what's true, if there is no god, I'm fine with that. If there is a god I will be concerned for the well being of others, especially if he's as crazy as you make him out to be.

If you did If you knew without doubt god existed could you have made your same choice about spending an eternity with God in Heaven?

I'd still opt for oblivion. To return to the state I started off from. The state where time and space no longer have any meaning to you. Being beyond such things.

There are many lies in religion. what most people do not understand is God is just as much against 'religion' as most atheists. Religion and God are two very different things.

The claim 'god exists' is probably the biggest lie of them all. Have you ever considered that? When I was experimenting with the idea of a god, I noticed I could change his personality, his likes and hates and his rules. I noticed, that I was inventing a being and subconsciously applying my own personality to it. It dawned on me that god is merely a concept of our creation. From our ability to imagine, and our imagination often clouds our judgement. Without control, we can believe in anything we imagine.

without doubt I know this, that is why I do not thump people with my bible. Everything I do or say to any of you is based off of your own questions. I am not here to force change on anyone.

That's good.

[Drich]

[quote='Ace Otana' pid='301857' dateline='1340289249']
[quote]It's nothing to do with wanting to be with god or not, I just don't believe there is one. [/quote]And if you knew God existed with out any doubt would you be Forced to believe in god or would you still deny God?? How would your 'morality' change?

[quote]There may be a god out there, perhaps entirely different from what you think he is. [/quote]All any of us can know is what He has told us about Himself.

[quote]Perhaps you miss understood him but accepts you anyway. [/quote]Which is why there are so many different forms of Christianity.

[quote]There could be a god that despises us all for one reason or another. [/quote]The reason is unrepented sin.

[quote]Thing is, for me I prefer to just live my life, help others and reach personal goals. If there is a god, then there is, and if there is no god then that's that. I want to know what's true, if there is no god, I'm fine with that. If there is a god I will be concerned for the well being of others, especially if he's as crazy as you make him out to be.[/quote]
What's crazy is how far soceity has strayed.
Now simply looking back places a person in a position to call God crazy.

[quote]I'd still opt for oblivion. To return to the state I started off from. The state where time and space no longer have any meaning to you. Being beyond such things.[/quote]IF this were true then you'd be the Only exception.

[quote]The claim 'god exists' is probably the biggest lie of them all. Have you ever considered that? [/quote]Yes I have explored both outside of the bible and then what the bible says, and found the path the bible contains to lead to God.

[quote]When I was experimenting with the idea of a god, I noticed I could change his personality, his likes and hates and his rules. I noticed, that I was inventing a being and subconsciously applying my own personality to it. It dawned on me that god is merely a concept of our creation. From our ability to imagine, and our imagination often clouds our judgement. Without control, we can believe in anything we imagine.[/quote]You have framed your endeavour correctly. You were expermenting with the Idea of God and were creating who you wanted Him to be, subsequently you accuratly concluded this God does not exist.

If you seek God as outlined in scripture there are no variables in which you can adjust. God is, and either you seek out what is or you attempt to modify what is to suit your wants. If you seek out the god of the bible in an honest effort that reflects what the bible has recorded then you will find the God of the bible waiting for you.

[LastPoet]

By the stars, what a load of bullshit!

[Ace Otana]

All any of us can know is what He has told us about Himself.

Or what you told yourself but believe it came from him, which is a delusion.

Which is why there are so many different forms of Christianity.

There are many different versions of god within Christianity. Each different Christian I bump into always seems to have a different god to the last guy.
"Gods often mimic the personality of the believer"

The reason is unrepented sin.

Ah, so you believe in that kind of god. So many versions.

What's crazy is how far soceity has strayed.
Now simply looking back places a person in a position to call God crazy.

Well if a person hides from people simply because they haven't seeked him out or tried to have a personal relationship and will send people to hell for trivial reasons....I'd call him crazy. God or not, that kind of attitude and behaviour is stupid and just plain weird.

Yes I have explored both outside of the bible and then what the bible says, and found the path the bible contains to lead to God.

What ever floats your boat as they say. Each to their own.

If you seek God as outlined in scripture there are no variables in which you can adjust. God is, and either you seek out what is or you attempt to modify what is to suit your wants. If you seek out the god of the bible in an honest effort that reflects what the bible has recorded then you will find the God of the bible waiting for you.

With or without scripture, you've created your own god and most likely with your personality. Letting your imagination take control of the steering wheel. You can't tell if a god exists or not through personal feelings. You can convince yourself there is a god and be completely wrong. I'll need more than, search for him, feel/hear him. I can easily conclude it as a form of delusion (which is most likely) and it's easily explainable.

[Thor]

Again this is more evidence that you were never apart of a church. How do you not know the division between the Old testamentand the New after 20 years?

Of course I know the division between the OT and the NT! The OT is where "God" is an angry, vengeful prick who kills indiscriminately. The NT is where "God" is a loving, forgiving, beneficent being who absolves us of everything.

Either this book speaks of two completely different deities, or your god had a personality transplant.

I did and it was given back 20x maybe 30x's over.

What do you mean "given back"? Did this deity appear to you and say, "Hey! You sold all your possessions and gave the money to the poor like I said! Since you gave away $1,000, here's $20,000 to reward you!"? Did somebody walk up to you on the street and hand you thousands of dollars? Or are you just filtering events through your religious prism and concluding that you were somehow "paid back" because you received some sort of unexpected windfall?

Not only was everything material offered to God, i gave of myself, my time and my all in all.

Okay, great! But do you have any possessions now? I'm guessing you must at least own a computer. In that case, why don't you sell everything you now own and give the money to the poor?

Many times. He never spoke back.

What did you say?

What difference does it make? This deity won't respond no matter what you ask.

Did you make yourself known to him? Did you give your all in all?

Why should I have to make myself known? Isn't this omnipotent deity aware of me? If anything, I would expect him to pay special attention to people who are moving toward disbelief. You'd think he'd want to reassure us that he is really there.

How could I possibly be in "the wrong place" when this deity is supposedly everywhere?

Because You were told to be at X, but you are waiting at Y speaking into an empty box. It's not that God is not at X, It's just He is not going to reach out to you till you meet Him where He told you to be, at Y.

Except that this deity never told me anything. So the how the hell am I supposed to know where to show up?

If the President Tells you to meet His at the White House on such and such date/time, do you wait at the Wendy's up the street a day late and demand that He meet you there?

See above comment.

Understand God is not here to serve you,

Your own words seem to contradict this statement...

Heaven is not about what you have done, it about what God has done for you

or to do magic tricks for you till your convinced that He exists.

Again, not looking for "magic tricks". Just something that convinces me he's real.

If you want to know God He has given you a very narrow path to follow, One that He promises to respond to. This is your invitation. If you do not respond according to the instructions He left then He will simply move on without you. God does not Need you like you need Him. You are not in a position to bargin or reason.

Unsubstantiated hooey.

You need attonement for any and all of the things you have thought said or did not in the expressed will of God.

See above comment.

While men with millions of 'good gandi deeds are eternally seperated. I have heard Jeffery Dalmer's testimony, if his heart matches his words he will be in Heaven.

I can only imagine walking around the streets of heaven and you see the guy who tortured and murdered you enjoying himself. My reaction would be, "What THE FUCK is HE doing here?!?!? Are you SHITTING ME?!?!?"

Then your deity sets the bar incredibly low for entry into paradise.

The bar was set low at the price of His son.

But wasn't his son actually himself? So he sacrificed himself to himself to remove a curse that he himself put on mankind....

Q: Do you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior?

Yes.

CONGRATULATIONS! You're in!

Seriously you think this is all that it takes? Do you have actual scripture, or is this more from your 20 years?

This is pretty much what you admitted to when you said that Jeffrey Dahmer could be in heaven.

Again, who are you that the Creator of the Universe must appear before you when He is summoned?

Who said he has to appear personally? He can't send one of his minions?

Does that work with the leaders of our nations for you? Does it work with celeberities you are interested in meeting? does it even work with your mom everytime you summon her?

Uhhh.... none of those people are omnipotent.

The Creator of Everything has set a perscribed path or issued a very specific set of instructions for all who want to Find Him. All anyone must do is follow that path, and He will be at the end of it. If you want to see God FOLLOW HIS PATH!

And Muslims say I should follow their path. Hindus say I should follow their path. What makes your path the right one?

Understand in the History of Man, God has never chased down and begged for anyone's attention. So why would you think He would do this for you?

So that whole business of drowning virtually everyone on the planet... that wasn't intended to get our attention?

God is waiting (via promises people claim He has made)

Fixed that for you.

For He has told us He hides Himself from people like you.

My, how convenient! This deity will show himself to believers (of course, only in some non-specific, unverifiable way) but he will hide from skeptics.

"Of course God won't show himself to you! You don't believe!"

What a bunch of malarkey.

[Drich]

Of course I know the division between the OT and the NT! The OT is where "God" is an angry, vengeful prick who kills indiscriminately. The NT is where "God" is a loving, forgiving, beneficent being who absolves us of everything.

Appearently not. After 20 years in Christianity you do not know the difference between OT judaism and NT Christianity. (just incase someone asks you in the future)

Either this book speaks of two completely different deities, or your god had a personality transplant.

Same God Same wrath, the difference is attonement. This is what the blood of Christ has bought you. The freedom to live a life in rebellion.

What do you mean "given back"? Did this deity appear to you and say, "Hey! You sold all your possessions and gave the money to the poor like I said! Since you gave away $1,000, here's $20,000 to reward you!"? Did somebody walk up to you on the street and hand you thousands of dollars? Or are you just filtering events through your religious prism and concluding that you were somehow "paid back" because you received some sort of unexpected windfall?

Again answered in my Message/Messenger Thread.

Okay, great! But do you have any possessions now?

No, I am just a Steward. I will and have given back anything the Lord asks.

I'm guessing you must at least own a computer.

again no, the Company God has me looking after owns several Computers.

What difference does it make?

Because God has told us what to say inorder to gardner a response. If you did not say these things then you are right it makes no difference.

This deity won't respond if you ask from a position of pride.

Since we are now in the business of 'fixing' each others statements.

Why should I have to make myself known?

Because you have been told to.

Isn't this omnipotent deity aware of me?

All the more reason to do as you have been instructed. (after 20 years in the church surely someone has told you what God expects from you.)

If anything, I would expect him to pay special attention to people who are moving toward disbelief. You'd think he'd want to reassure us that he is really there.

The right of disbelief is the sole purpose of this life. Why would He give life to allow disbelief, just to force belief in the long run?

Except that this deity never told me anything. So the how the hell am I supposed to know where to show up?

How can you say that you search for God and never once in 20 year open your bible and read it? Were you not looking for the God of the bible (You claimed you sought after Him for 20 years) Did it not occour to you to look in the bible for the God of the bible? If you did then you have received your instructions.

Your own words seem to contradict this statement...

Please cut and paste what has confused you.

I can only imagine walking around the streets of heaven and you see the guy who tortured and murdered you enjoying himself. My reaction would be, "What THE FUCK is HE doing here?!?!? Are you SHITTING ME?!?!?"

There is a parable that speaks to this if you wish to read it.

But wasn't his son actually himself?

Nope, read my thread on the trinity explained.

This is pretty much what you admitted to when you said that Jeffrey Dahmer could be in heaven.

Actually I din't say what Jeffery said. I said if His Heart reflects his words He will have found forgiveness for His sins. Salvation is a matter of the Heart not a verbal delicration.

Who said he has to appear personally?

You did.

Uhhh.... none of those people are omnipotent.

So?

And Muslims say I should follow their path.

Actually you are not qualified in the strictest sense to follow their path,

Hindus say I should follow their path.

Actually no they don't, but one is offered if you wish to follow it.

What makes your path the right one?

Because none of the others offer to put you before the God of the bible in attoned righteousness.

Understand in the History of Man, God has never chased down and begged for anyone's attention. So why would you think He would do this for you?

So that whole business of drowning virtually everyone on the planet... that wasn't intended to get our attention?

Read the story and you tell me. I'll even tell you where to look. Before Noah was even given the command to build the Ark God gives His reason for cleansing the earth. Wicked Man was only a small part of a 'larger' problem.

My, how convenient! This deity will show himself to believers (of course, only in some non-specific, unverifiable way) but he will hide from skeptics.

If He didn't 'skeptics' would not exist. Therefore elimating 'free will.'

[Thor]

Appearently not. After 20 years in Christianity you do not know the difference between OT judaism and NT Christianity.

No, I think I pretty much nailed it.

Same God Same wrath,

Not at all. When has this deity flooded the planet, turned people to salt, sent armies to kill people or killed first born sons in the last 2,000 years?

the difference is attonement.

And people weren't entitled to attonement prior to Jesus?

This is what the blood of Christ has bought you.

Hasn't bought me anything. And what about the people who died prior to Jesus? They're just screwed? (BTW, there is no evidence whatsoever that Jesus was a real person).

The freedom to live a life in rebellion.

You sound like the Burgermeister Meisterburger when he called Kris Kringle a "rebel".

No, I am just a Steward. I will and have given back anything the Lord asks.

You have no possessions whatsoever? I find that hard to believe. And when did this "Lord" ever ask you to do anything?

again no, the Company God has me looking after owns several Computers.

Oh, so you post your responses from work. Is your boss aware of this? And "God" has you looking after a company? He hired you? What was that interview process like?

Because God has told us what to say inorder to gardner a response. If you did not say these things then you are right it makes no difference.

Why do we need to say something specific? That's kind of asinine. So, if someone was never educated in what specifically needs to be said, this deity will ignore you?

6 year old Billy: Hello, God? Please take away my cancer. It hurts a lot and I want to play with my friends again.

God: What's that? You didn't phrase it right! Place this kid on "ignore"!

This deity won't respond if you ask from a position of pride.

Since we are now in the business of 'fixing' each others statements.

You hardly "fixed" my statement. Mine was accurate as it stood, unlike yours.

Why should I have to make myself known?

Because you have been told to.

Where? By who?

(after 20 years in the church surely someone has told you what God expects from you.)

Uhhhhh... people claim to have told me what this deity wants. Nowhere have I ever actually heard anything from this deity himself.

The right of disbelief is the sole purpose of this life.

This makes no sense. The entire purpose of our life is so that this deity can find out whether or not we'll believe in him? But, if he's omnipotent, he will know before we're born whether or not we'll believe. So what's the point in seeing if someone will believe when you already know the answer?

Why would He give life to allow disbelief, just to force belief in the long run?

Giving me credible evidence that he does, indeed exist is hardly "forcing belief".

How can you say that you search for God and never once in 20 year open your bible and read it?

Oh, I opened the Babble and read it. It was one of the things that convinced me this god of yours is bullshit.

I can only imagine walking around the streets of heaven and you see the guy who tortured and murdered you enjoying himself. My reaction would be, "What THE FUCK is HE doing here?!?!? Are you SHITTING ME?!?!?"

There is a parable that speaks to this if you wish to read it.

Don't need to read a parable. Because the whole scenario is nonsensical.

This is pretty much what you admitted to when you said that Jeffrey Dahmer could be in heaven.

Actually I din't say what Jeffery said. I said if His Heart reflects his words He will have found forgiveness for His sins. Salvation is a matter of the Heart not a verbal delicration.

You said Jeffrey Dahmer could be in heaven. That's my point.

Who said he has to appear personally?

You did.

And I said he could send one of his minions.

Uhhh.... none of those people are omnipotent.

So?

If you're so obtuse as to not get my point here, I'm not going to explain it.

What makes your path the right one?

Because none of the others offer to put you before the God of the bible in attoned righteousness.

Oh, so you fell for the sales pitch!

If He didn't 'skeptics' would not exist. Therefore elimating 'free will.'

Baloney. This deity could certainly let us know he exists and then leave it up to us whether or not we want to follow him.