Answers to an Apologist Redux

[Rev. Rye]

It's been about two and a half years since I joined this forum. And unlike the other forums I've been a part of, it's not showing any sign of stagnation. And I thought to myself, what better way of celebrating this than by doing a redux of one of my first threads on the forum? Back when I was a n00b, I reworked one of my old posts from another forum, a dissection of this article. You can check out my old version here and compare it to what I have before you. You can feel free to do your own version of this if you're so inclined. Hell, you may have even improved on my answers.

1. How do you explain the high degree of design and order in the universe?

Just because something looks designed and ordered doesn't necessarily mean that it is, in fact, designed and ordered by some anthropomorphised entity who fits the description of “God.”

2. How do you account for the vast archaeological documentation of Biblical stories, places, and people?

Have you ever heard of a thing called “Historical Fiction?” Just because the places wherein parts of the Bible have been set have been found doesn't necessarily mean that what is described in the stories really happened, much less the veracity of the Bible as a whole. And, while we're on the subject, Just what is the vast archaeological documentation of Biblical Stories, places, and people?

3. Since absolutely no Bible prophecy has ever failed (and there are hundreds), how can one realistically remain unconvinced that the Bible is of Divine origin?

Given that we have no evidence of these Biblical prophecies being fulfilled except in the Bible itself, and since we've not got any verification of the historical reliability of the Bible, it's easy to explain why one can remain unconvinced that the Bible is of Divine origin. Oh, and by the way, Oswald Spengler's Decline of the West has an amazing track record with its predictions with none having failed, only predictions that, while not having happened yet, are still plausible. Does this mean that Oswald Spengler was God?

Explain David's graphic portrayal of Jesus' death by crucifixion (Psalm 22) 1000 years previous to crucifixion being established as a form of capital punishment?

I've read the passage, and it doesn't really read like Crucifixion. If it sounds like it's predicting anyone's death, it would be Timothy Treadwell's death.

How could any mere human pinpoint the birth town of the Messiah seven full centuries before the fact, as did the prophet Micah?

Even the authors of the New Testament don't seem to have gotten the birth town down. In the infancy narratives, he's born in Bethlehem, but after that, he's always referred to as being from Nazareth, except for a few times where he's referred to as being from Galilee. Of course, it helps that Bethlehem was King David's hometown, which helped things with regards to parity in prophecy.

Account for the odds (1 in 10 to the 157th power) that even just 48 (of 300) Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled in one person, i.e Jesus.

The Jews didn't think so. In fact, there's several explanations why Jews rejected him and didn't see him as the Messiah. One in-depth explanation can be found at http://www.26reasons.com/reason8.html

How was it possible for the Old Testament prophet Isaiah to have predicted the virgin birth of Jesus (Isaiah 7:14) 700 years before it occurred?

Well, he didn't. The word “Almah,” which is the crucial word in this passage, is pretty clear cut, and it has no connotations of virginity. It merely means “young woman.” It's not that hard to predict a baby being born in a town to a young woman.

4. How can anyone doubt the reliability of Scripture considering the number and proximity to originals of its many copied manuscripts?

Read Bart Ehrman's “Misquoting Jesus.” In the New Testament manuscripts alone, there are more different textual variations than there are words. Besides, what originals are you talking about? There are several different text types that claim to be the original, like the Alexandrian, the Coptic, and the Textus Receptus. Which one is the original and what do you base this on?

5. Are you able to live consistently with your present worldview?

I am certainly more consistent in my worldview than someone like Ted Haggard was.

6. Wouldn't it make better sense, even pragmatically, to live as though the God of the Bible does exist than as though He doesn't?

And what happens if it turns out some other God is real and he's just as vengeful and concerned about being loved as the God of the Bible? That sort of blows a big hole in your “pragmatic sense” argument. Seriously, this is like the Pythagorean theorem of arguments for the existence of God, because there's so many possible disproofs of this argument. Of course, even Pascal knew that this argument couldn't stand on its own, which is why his Pensees consists of other ideas entirely.

7. In what sense was Jesus a 'Good Man' if He was lying in His claim to be God?

If Jesus lied, he lied. It's also very possible that the Biblical accounts which claim he is God are in error, and it's even possible he didn't exist at all, and the scarceness of contemporary accounts, while astronomical by the standards of poor-born people in an obscure corner of the Roman empire, are still very scant.

8. Do you think that Jesus was misguided in affirming the truthfulness of Scripture, i.e. John 10:35, Matthew 24, Luke 24:44?

Ignoring the blatant circular reasoning in using scripture to affirm the veracity of scripture, I would have to say yes.

9. If the Bible is not true, why is it so universally regarded as the 'Good Book'?

It helps that a lot of people haven't actually read the damn book all the way through.

Are you aware that the Old Testament alone claims to be God's inspired word at least 2600 times?

Are you aware that circular reasoning isn't accepted in most circles that at least try to be philosophical?

Did you know that the Bible has been the number one best-seller every year since the 1436 invention of the Gutenberg printing press?

Do you know what the Number two best-selling book of all time is? Mao's Little Red Book. And #10, by some counts, is Valley of the Dolls. By the way, the printing press was invented in 1454.

10. From whence comes humanity's universal moral sense?

It comes from something very specific. You see, people are social animals, and they need to live in societies, and for societies to function properly, there need to be rules, and people who live by these rules have a better chance at survival, especially when society as a whole can enforce the rules.

11. If man is nothing but the random arrangement of molecules, what motivates you to care and to live honorably in the world?

What does the fact that man is a “random arrangement of molecules” have to do with anything? Whether or not there is a God, the fact remains true that man is an arrangement of molecules, and I don't see what the idea of adding anything else should do with caring and living honorably.

12. Explain how personality could have ever evolved from the impersonal, or how order could have ever resulted from chaos.

Ah, yes. The Second Law of Thermodynamics. RationalWiki has an article about that right here: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Second_law_...modynamics

13. If Jesus' resurrection was faked, why would twelve intelligent men (Jesus' disciples) have died for what they knew to be a lie?

1. Maybe they would have died more for their teacher. Is it so utterly implausible that a person could have so much respect for a teacher that they would have died for him? And besides, if you actually read the Gospels, you find that they're not really that intelligent.

14. How do you explain the fact that a single, relatively uneducated and virtually untraveled man, dead at age 33, radically changed lives and society to this day?

Well, simply put, A minor prophet got killed by the Roman government, and 30 years later, the biggest nation on Earth needed a scapegoat for the burning of their capital city, and decided that his followers would do. Eventually, the doctrine spread like wildfire, and in 250 years, the emperor Constantine would have a psychotic break and convert to the religion that formed around said prophet. Eventually, it spread across the empire, which, even after the empire's fall, still wound up conquering the world through a process called Globalisation which had the inevitable effect of making the prophet's life and message perpetuated. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how this uneducated, untraveled man has changed lives and societies. Thank You, and Good Night.

15. Why have so many of history's greatest thinkers been believers? Have you ever wondered why thousands of intelligent scientists, living and dead, have been men and women of great faith?

It really helps that, for more than a millennium, in many places, not being a believer was considered something worthy of death by society.

16. Isn't it somewhat arrogant to suggest that countless churches and people (including men like Abraham Lincoln) are all radically in error in their view of the Bible?

Given the nature of the myriad of Christian denominations in the world, it's impossible to reach any other conclusion. Oh, and Lincoln was irreligious, and didn't see much of a point in any church with a doctrine beyond “Love Your Neighbour.”

17. How do you account for the origin of life considering the irreducible complexity of its essential components?

Irreducible Complexity is bullshit. There's never been a single example that's stood up to scrutiny.

18. How can the Second Law of Thermodynamics be reconciled with progressive, naturalistic evolutionary theory?

How can it not be? All the theory of evolution states is that natural selection allows genes to be passed on and traits to be preserved. The theory of evolution couldn't have gotten far if it violated a physical law of this magnitude.

How do you reconcile the existence of human intelligence with naturalism and the Law of Entropy?

Um, once again, the Second Law of Thermodynamics doesn't work that way.

19. Why does the Bible alone, of all of the world's 'holy' books, contain such detailed prophecies of future events?

Does it? Unless you're talking about Revelation, in which case the absurd nature of the texts at hand, the even more absurd attempts at reconciling it with the real world, and the fact that many scholars see it as a commentary of events as they were occuring within Christianity at the close of the First century.

20. On what basis can the Bible (interpreted as per historic Christian orthodoxy) be challenged as a sole, final truth-standard (Galatians 1:8)?

Common sense?

21. Is it absolutely true that "truth is not absolute" or only relatively true that "all things are relative?"

I'd lean more towards the latter. There are things that aren't open to debate, like gravity and quite a lot of physics, but there's still quite a few things that are not as they seem.

22. Is it possible that your unbelief in God is actually an unwillingness to submit to Him?

Let me tell you this: If I were to believe truly in the existence of the God of the Bible, then the way God portrays himself there is more reprehensible than any dictator and I'd become a true Satanist, and not even the LeVeyan kind, either.

23. Does your present worldview provide you with an adequate sense of meaning and purpose?

It's certainly given me a more suitable meaning and purpose than kissing the ass of a totalitarian being that may not even exist.

24. How do you explain the radically changed lives of so many Christian believers down through history?

Why do I need to? People of all religions have had their lives radically changed by their path. For instance, if Islam didn't change lives, my collection of Cat Stevens records would be a hell of a lot bigger than it could ever be now, because he wouldn't have ever quit music after becoming a Muslim.

25. Are you aware that every alleged Bible contradiction has been answered in an intelligible and credible manner?

Maybe it has been answered in an intelligible and credible manner to you, but they don't all hold up.

26. What do you say about the hundreds of scholarly books that carefully document the veracity and reliability of the Bible?

And what about the hundreds of thousands of scholarly books that carefully document the veracity and reliability of the Theory of evolution?

27. Why and how has the Bible survived and even flourished in spite of centuries of worldwide attempts to destroy and ban its message?

It helps that in the last 17 centuries, the believers more or less ruled the known world.

28. Why isn't it absurd to try to speak or even conceive of a non-existent 'God' when an existing God would, by definition, be greater?

Seriously? The Ontological Argument hasn't been viable since the Publication of Kant's Critique of Pure Reason.

29. Have you ever considered the fact that Christianity is the only religion whose leader is said to have risen from the dead?

And how does this prove anything? Wait until Nikki Sixx starts up his own religion. He died for about 20 minutes before a show before he got back up and did the show.

30. How do you explain the empty tomb of Jesus in light of all the evidence that has now proven essentially irrefutable for twenty centuries?

The evidence for the Resurrection is “essentially irrefutable” because there's nothing to refute.

31. If Jesus did not actually die and rise from the dead, how could He (in His condition) have circumvented all of the security measures in place at His tomb?

See Question 30.

32. If the authorities stole Jesus' body, why? Why would they have perpetrated the very scenario that they most wanted to prevent?

See my answer to #30.

33. If Jesus merely resuscitated in the tomb, how did He deal with the Roman guard posted just outside its entrance?

See My answer to Question 30.

34. How can one realistically discount the testimony of over 500 witnesses to a living Jesus following His crucifixion (see 1 Corinthians 15:6)?

How many people have seen Elvis since he died? That's got to be more than 500 people right there. Do we believe them just because of that?

35. If all of Jesus' claims to be God were the result of His own self-delusion, why didn't He evidence lunacy in any other areas of His life?

Mental illness isn't as black and white as you may think it is. If a man lives an otherwise normal life, but believes he is always accompanied by an invisible 6 ½ foot tall rabbit, does that mean he is free of mental illness?

36. If God is unchanging, wouldn't it be true that one who changes by suddenly “realizing” that he/she is “God” therefore isn't God?

Since I don't believe in an unchanging God, or any sort of God, I fail to see this question's relevance.

37. Is your unbelief in a perfect God possibly the result of a bad experience with an imperfect Church or a misunderstanding of the facts, and therefore an unfair rejection of God Himself?

I am well aware that there are Christians who aren't total pricks. I was raised in a denomination that glorified the story of a man named Martin Luther, who saw the church as it was as so corrupt that he started anew. I have read the Bible. I have read enough apologetics to know what you believe and I have read enough to explain the flaws in your reasoning. I remain unconvinced that God exists.

38. How did 35-40 men, spanning 1500 years and living on three separate continents, ever manage to author one unified message, i.e. the Bible?

Have you ever heard of a thing called “An Editor?”

39. Would you charge the Declaration of Independence with error in affirming that "all men are endowed by their Creator..."?

Yes. The Founding Fathers are hardly infallible. If you read the Articles of Confederation, they actually thought that a nation could stand to exist on a voluntary tax system. And, of course, many of them believed that slavery was morally upright.

40. Because life origins are not observable, verifiable, or falsifiable, how does historical 'science' amount to anything more than just another faith system?

You greatly underestimate the ability of scientists to replicate conditions that may have contributed to the creation of life on Earth, experiment on it, and create hypotheses based on the results.

41. What do you make of all the anthropological studies indicating that even the most remote tribes show some sort of theological awareness?

The Piraha tribe don't believe in any sort of God. As the story goes, a tribal chieftain of the Piraha was told about Jesus, but lost interest when the missionary who told him admitted that he never met Jesus.

42. Why subscribe to the incredible odds that the tilt and position of our planet relative to the sun are merely coincidental?

Why not subscribe to the odds that we as Earthlings just plain lucked out?

43. If every effect has a cause, and if God Himself is the universe (i.e. is one with the universe, as some non-Christians suggest), what or who then caused the universe?

Unfortunately for your question, I am not a pantheist. I don't know what caused The Big Bang, but it seems like scientists are trying to figure that out.

44. What would be required to persuade you to become a believer?

Blow me. In all seriousness, there's a list which explains precisely that here. We're not exactly holding our breath for these to be answered. If you can't do any of the things he suggests, blow me.

[Minimalist]

44. What would be required to persuade you to become a believer?

God himself...none of this jesus/holy ghost shit...would have to appear before me, slap me upside the head and say "what is your major malfunction, numb-nuts?" Then he would have to prove he was god.

Anything short of that won't cut it. And these jesus-freak morons can blow their fucking bible out their asses.

[Angrboda]

Typical Christian apologetics: Assert something false to be true, ask the non-believer to explain it. What the?



I don't know what, if anything, would convince me that God is real. There are many displays between the mundane and being God which can be fulfilled by something else. If being the creator of all is a necesary property of God, how does one demonstrate that? I guess it has to go back to skepticism and the scientific method: evidence can increase the probability that something is true, but that certainty never reaches 100%. And one has to take into account base rates, prior probability, framing of prior probability and so on. If I encountered an extremely powerful Djinn in the desert, could he persuade me that he might be God? Of course; that figures into the base rate. Can drugs and neurological defects or misbehaviors convince me that I've met God? Into the prior probabilities! Is it possible to have a dream so real you mistake it for a memory? Into the prior probabilities!

In sum, I don't that it's realistically possible to convince me, 100%, that something is God. Half because of the deep well of improbability that He sits in, half because of potential not-God explanations of experience.

But then, I'm an odd bird in that regard. I don't think I could be convinced, 100%, that the real world exists. Is this a dream, am I an idea in the mind of God, am I a brain in a 16 dimension vat? There's no way to determine which is true.

So I remain agnostic as to the existence of reality, while believing it to be real. And gods, yes, I believe in one, but I would be foolish to assert my belief as knowledge.