Voiding Free Will

[Gambit]

I'd have to appoint a committee to decide on the Propitiation owed to humanity.

No, No, No! I'd rather be a slave of Jove, than live in a universe run by a committee.

Well, I use the word committee quite loosely. In the same way that I used to call the pub the office, anytime my ex asked where I was going. We're talking more like a smoke and liquor party, where we could conceive of the most stupid, yet hilarious ways to make God jump through hoops to earn forgiveness.

[jonb]

Well, I use the word committee quite loosely. In the same way that I used to call the pub the office, anytime my ex asked where I was going. We're talking more like a smoke and liquor party, where the most we could conceive of the most stupid, yet hilarious ways to make God jump through hoops to earn forgiveness.

Ok, I did not realise I could be converted so easily, I'll get the beers in.

PS
I was going to stop there but, I though we had better explain to the brethren, about a smoke and liquor party. Its not so much about casting the first stone, as before long some bright spark says I bet you couldn't do that, and you find yourself in the lift, in your undies on the way down to the hotel lobby with the fire extinguisher hose up your butt, with 90 bucks on whether you will set it of when you step out, which will buy another round of drinks.
Happy days

[Reforged]

The concept of freewill is an odd one.
When you consider that we are a product of our upbringing, our genetics and our experiences, that every "choice" we make is undeniably a result of these as well as other influencing factors then where does freewill even come into it?
God or not I think freewill is simply a concept we've invented to suggest we have more control than we really do.

[FallentoReason]

The concept of freewill is an odd one.
When you consider that we are a product of our upbringing, our genetics and our experiences, that every "choice" we make is undeniably a result of these as well as other influencing factors then where does freewill even come into it?
God or not I think freewill is simply a concept we've invented to suggest we have more control than we really do.

I just exercised my free will when I decided to respond to this, did I not? I see free will as the ability to do as one pleases. Whether this action is good, bad, stupid, weird, pointless it doesn't matter. I'm the one that is in control of my thoughts and actions. No one or no thing controls me.

[Tempus]

I just exercised my free will when I decided to respond to this, did I not? I see free will as the ability to do as one pleases. Whether this action is good, bad, stupid, weird, pointless it doesn't matter. I'm the one that is in control of my thoughts and actions. No one or no thing controls me.

Being free of control from agents doesn't equal free will. Free will could still be negated by other things without intentions. I see the idea of free will as something that arises to assist with narrative creation in our minds. When you posted you did so acting upon preferences, which in turn were shaped by other actions you performed and events you experienced prior to that, each with their own catalysts. If physical processes act according to their various laws and principals, and you're made of physical matter, what makes you think you're exempt from cause and effect?

To be honest, I'm unclear on whether you believe the ineffable kind of free will, or the kind where simply being unrestricted in your life (in the sense that you're not being held captive, coerced into performing some task, etc) is considered 'free will', as I kind of went into on the preceding page. Actually I'd recommend this video by Dennett if you're at all interested in what I'm talking about. Obviously it's very long, so it's understandable if you don't want to, haha. He starts talking around 13 - 14 minutes in.

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[toro]

I just exercised my free will when I decided to respond to this, did I not? I see free will as the ability to do as one pleases. Whether this action is good, bad, stupid, weird, pointless it doesn't matter. I'm the one that is in control of my thoughts and actions. No one or no thing controls me.

Does opportunity not count as control?
I can paralyze you with medication: you are no longer in control of your actions.
I can destabilize your mind with medication: you are no longer in control of your thoughts.

We can't say that doesn't count because I'm taking away your ability to do something. That's the definition of control.

[Angrboda]

Mein Gott, not another free will thread.

You may want to review the state of debate in a prior thread. Last I examined it, Genkaus was doing a fine job holding his own with a compatibilist position. I personally think compatibilism, and specifically Dennett's exposition of it in is crap. But saying it is one thing, and demonstrating it another. FWIW. (Also, FWIW, my entire atheist book club thought Dennett's book sucked, a problem for me as they read it largely on my recommendation.)

OK, so the first three pages were devoid of this level of conversations. Where would be a good place to start so a substance dualist can jump into the conversation? Perhpas a list of questions or a post number reference?

It started with a trickle on page 5, first post, when I necroposted to a dormant thread. Imho, it really started to get going on page 10, Zen Badger's post. My whatever you want to call it with me and Rhythm is probably 5-10 pages further in (maybe starting in pages 15-20), but, I think our discussion was largely a tempest in a teapot, and so is probably not worth seeking out on its own account (Rhythm may feel otherwise; that's just imho).

[Drich]

Here's a simple thought:

Assuming that those who claim they have literally heard God speak had a genuine experience wouldn't it mean that their life has been altered forever? They cannot live how they like anymore because they have an undeniably tangible experience that proves to them personally that God is real.

I see faith as the use of one's free will. One chooses to have faith in something but after such an experience faith is no longer needed. You have but ONE choice and that is to serve the God who showed himself to you UNMISTAKEABLY.

Free will is gone.

Wow, I've only said this about a bizillion times here when people ask where is the proof for God, but I guess the important thing is that you get it and not where you get it from.