Atheist and ex-gay?

[Napoléon]

Good for you want a medal?

[Lion IRC]

Good for you want a medal?

No thanks.
I'm already richly blessed.

[Shell B]

Good point, Napo. I would not expect the love of my life to find me physically attractive if I were burned that badly. I would not look like me anymore, so how could I expect that. Love, yes. I would assume he would still love me.

[Napoléon]

Love, yes. I would assume he would still love me.

Yeah but the point I'm getting at, is would it be the same love as before?

[The Grand Nudger]

One need not be burned to garner both devotion and repulsion........my ex-wife...for example. I love her deeply, profoundly, painfully, an the love is today as it was the day we met. However.....I hate her immensely, passionately, and completely.

Love is fickle.

[Ryantology]

Love, yes. I would assume he would still love me.

Yeah but the point I'm getting at, is would it be the same love as before?

Simple as it is, the little question I posed would (attempt to) lead you to determine whether your love for a person could exist if they were not of the gender to which you usually orient, which would also give at least some insight into what love means to the person who answers.

[Lion IRC]

I've always wondered whether a gay person would leave the love of their life, their soul mate, the person they insist they would ''marry'' if the law permited...

...if that person changed gender.
...if they lost their visually distinctive masculine/feminine features.
...if that person discovered they were really bi-sexual or heterosexual rather than homosexual.

The insistence by some/many gay people that they simply cannot BE anything other than gay, seems to say that their homosexual relationships
are only skin-deep (genitalia) and are dependent upon their partner being sufficiently "same-sex". It seems to be a BARRIER to unconditional love.

I don't think there's such a thing as completely gay or straight. I think everyone falls somewhere in the middle. As I am definitely in the middle somewhere, if the person I loved changed gender or physical appearance, it would not make a difference to me unless her personality changed with it, which would prompt me to re-evaluate a relationship no matter what else is going on. But, I can also see how people view such things to be an important aspect of whomever they are dating. Hell, for some people, love itself isn't really a big deal.

But, as Shell B pointed out, everything you said about gay people applies just as much to people who think they are straight. If you fell in love with a woman who, one day, by inexplicable means, woke up a man in looks and physical build, how strong would your love be?

Well, if I was the type of person who demanded marriage equality on the basis that - being "born that way'' - I have simply have no choice but to be gay, (same sex attraction only,) then I would surely have to get a divorce right?

I mean, if the partner of a totally and absolutely gay, gay, gay, gay, gay … man suffered a medical trauma and lost his external masculinity, such a person would presumably find it impossible to spend the rest of their life with someone whose masculinity was now ambiguous....closer to a woman...androgynous.


Exactly how gay are you Ms Szubanski?

[Napoléon]

Love and sexuality are not black and white like everyone likes to think. The problems arise when people try to treat them like they are.

[sleep]

Well maybe I am being too picky. I mean, can you blame me for not wanting to be with someone I don't find physically attractive or who I don't get along with very well? I've tried that before, not doing it again. I'd rather be single. I can't think of anybody who ignores looks completely. Anyway, I think I did mention I'm in an online relationship but I doubt it'll work out. I'm pretty much bad luck and anything I'm involved with always fails.

I wasn't originally so self-depreciating and hateful. I started out as a happy guy with self-confidence. It's just people would be mean to me, reject me, mock me... too much. I couldn't take it. I was too sensitive I guess, always have been. I couldn't just ignore it. So now I'm miserable, mean, hateful, etc. I don't know if I'm capable of being happy or friendly again. I'd need to erase what everyone has hammered into my brain; that I'm useless, have no talent, am a terrible person, etc.

As for being misanthrope, I just don't get along with anyone anymore. Maybe I'm picky with friends too. I have certain qualities I look for that most people don't have.

As far as the original thread topic, I guess the answer is a universal "No". Sorry for offending anyone.

[TaraJo]

I'm 'kinda' gay, so I think I can provide a little input here, can't I? Let's see if I can deal with all the 'wrongness' of this post, shall we?

a) Any gay male I've met has been sub-par, at best, with one or (usually) more of the following: really flawed personality, shitty or no job or goals in life, substance-user, or (as shallow as this is) really unattractive, among other stuff. And yes, I fit a few of those (the one I don't fit is that I'm strictly substance-free).

b) Gay males make fools of themselves in front of everybody, and pretty much make everybody hate them. They have to force their views and agenda onto everybody.

Those are all stereotypes and aren't always true. I have several friends who are gay men who aren't anything like this.

However, there's something else I've noticed. Loud, obnoxious jerks get noticed simply because they're loud and obnoxious. I'm in class and it's easy to notice the two or three guys who keep yelling stupid comments every time they get the chance. It would be easy for me to have a negative opinion of men except for one thing: What you don't notice is the other eight or nine quiet guys, sitting in the back of the room. In your case, the gay men you notice are the most loud, obnoxious, flamboyant and visible ones. The ones you don't notice are the ones just going out there, living their lives like anyone else would and blending in with the rest of society. When you get involved in gay culture, you really find a lot more of those people. I know gay men who are doctors, lawyers or counselors. I went to school with one who wanted to work but couldn't because of the student visa laws so he just worked as hard in class as he could and pretty much had straight A's.

c) Less chance of finding love, obviously. I'm a misanthrope to begin with and hate most people. Finding a gay male I get along with can be almost impossible (I'm technically in a relationship but I doubt it'll work out). Finding someone I get along with AND find attractive... mission impossible.

Then be picky. Nothing wrong with having standards. If anything it's a good thing; you don't wind up with a loser whose just going to drag you down.

d) It just feels embarrassing to me. Most societies force men to "act like men", including liking (feminine) women. It'd be one thing if I was one of the masculine gay men, but I'm not. Most people know I'm gay as soon as they meet me, no matter how hard I try to hide it. I'm too stereotypical and I feel ashamed. I know that it's because I was brainwashed by society into thinking this way, but I don't think there's any way to unbrainwash me.

There is so much wrong with this that I don't even know where to begin. First off, why do you think suddenly identifying as 'straight,' whether you mean it or not, will suddenly make you change your personality? And if you're ashamed of being a femmy gay man, and you're able to change that aspect to yourself, what's to prevent you from being a 'straight acting' gay man? I've met a lot of them; you wouldn't even know they're gay unless you specifically asked.

You'll notice I'm not mentioning gay women (lesbians). While a few have annoyed the living daylight out of me with their radical feminazi views among other stuff,

Ugh. Don't even get started on that bullshit.

most have been very nice and decent, hard-working women. So I don't have much against them. Plus, they tend to keep quiet about being lesbians.

I've met a lot who are just plain ol' basketcases. No job, emotionally unstable, clingy and, yes, preachy about feminist extremism. Not always good.

Among the straight atheists who dislike homosexuals, they usually give good reasons. It has no intended purpose in nature (I feel useless). The gay men I've seen and met contributed nothing good to society. The feminine ones who preach acceptance of feminine men are teaching men that it's okay to be weak and girly, and that someone should be there to protect them. If I had more radical teachings of the opposite, maybe I'd have toughened up and have been more manly.

Sorry this thread was so long, I'll stop now.

So, is there any way to make myself straight while still not caring about religion? I just want to fit into society better, not feel ashamed/embarassed about myself, meet and date decent people, etc. Thanks for reading.

PS- I would have posted this on like an ex-gay forum... couldn't find any. Just Christian forums.

The big problem is, every time science has a crack at it and tries to find a reliable way to 'cure' gay people, they always come back with the same answer: it can't be 'cured' and trying just hurts everyone involved. Christian groups are only able to ignore this science because they've made a regular habit of ignoring science, whether it's the mountain of scientific evidence that backs up evolution, the science proving global warming or the science that says the world is over populated.

You don't have to date, which isn't a bad goal. Heck, it always seems to work out with me; I tell myself 'no dating' and wind up with a relationship within a month or so. But staying single until you find someone who meets your high standards would probably be a more fruitful goal than trying to straighten yourself out.

I will also say, I think sexual orientation is more of a spectrum thing than a black or white thing. One person may be attracted to women 90% of the time, another may be attracted to women 80% of the time and so on. So there may be a small part of you that can find certain women attractive. The only way I could see you being sort of straight would be if you have that part of you that's already partially attracted to women and trying to explore that attraction. But forcing yourself to have an attraction that isn't there just doesn't work.