Food for thought

[LEDO]

According to the book of Ancient jewish memories animals have no souls.

Since we know man is just a branch of the animal kingdom, that would mean that man has no soul. And I agree with that. Still it's baffling that ancient jewish memories should be valued for information content. Why dig out old corpses when you know that there's no flesh to the bone?

I think "ancient Jewish memories" is a girlie term for midrash(im) or the Talmud.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

The symbol for judgement was the scale. It is the constellation of Libra.

The symbol for Libra (an omega-like glyph with a horizontal line under it) also represents the rising sun. (Egyptian)

[LEDO]

The symbol for judgement was the scale. It is the constellation of Libra.

The symbol for Libra (an omega-like glyph with a horizontal line under it) also represents the rising sun. (Egyptian)

It also represented a Babylonian altar. As a rising sun symbol it would correspond to the constellation seen at the vernal equinox right before sunrise. Later this consellation would represent the trial of Jesus in the fictional passion play adopted by Christianity.

[Purple Rabbit]

Actually heaven was both the sky and the afterlife. Rulers became stars and common souls became part of the Milky Way which the ancients correctly deduced was a group of stars. Meteors were seen as souls coming to earth to enter the body. The heavens had gates. Souls would enter via Cancer and leave via Capricorn.

The symbol for judgement was the scale. It is the constellation of Libra. It is where souls were weighed to sell if they could enter heaven. It is also harvest time when crops are weighed.

Interesting stuff, where did you get that info from.

BTW, have you pieced the story togther yet?

You can use any concordance for the Hebrew stuff. The fcosmic olklore comes from Allen's "Star Names Their Lore and Meaning." I quote heavily from it in my own soon to published work since its copyright has expired. The book is also considered to be one of the best on the topic. Ann Wright has a constellation web site which quotes him extensively also.

The souls being weighed is standard Egyptian Book of the Dead stuff.

Yeh I got the soul weighing, but have never once in my life studied astrology, the last piece of the jigsaw.

I take it you can get Allen's book on project gutenberg, right?

It is available online for most part of it (see here)
There's a huge disclaimer in the opening remarks however:
"The three principal shortcomings of the book are that it is not as systematic as the subject deserves, sometimes a downright jumble of ancient languages and afterthoughts and digressions and backtracking; that the astronomy predates Palomar and the Hubble telescope, radar and quasars, by decades and decades and is best taken lightly, as a window into the late 19c rather than into the stuff of the Universe; and, most seriously, that the sources are condensed, for the most part uncited, and — worst of all — trusted."

The trouble is (as with most mythical tales) there's not one ultimate source for such clarifications. It's a mixed up thing running throug all kinds of ages and cultures.

The idea that 'heaven' has a double meaning (i.e. the sky and afterlife) is indeed interesting and it seems to mean that our ancestors wouldn't agree with us that it has double meaning. To them it was one and the same. This is in accordance with genesis and the word 'heaven' througout the bible. This means that biased christian bible interpreters would have to leave out the meaning of the word that clearly is denied by modern science. To claim that after your death you really go up in the sky nowadays is plain silly.

[LEDO]

Actually heaven was both the sky and the afterlife. Rulers became stars and common souls became part of the Milky Way which the ancients correctly deduced was a group of stars. Meteors were seen as souls coming to earth to enter the body. The heavens had gates. Souls would enter via Cancer and leave via Capricorn.

The symbol for judgement was the scale. It is the constellation of Libra. It is where souls were weighed to sell if they could enter heaven. It is also harvest time when crops are weighed.

Interesting stuff, where did you get that info from.

BTW, have you pieced the story togther yet?

You can use any concordance for the Hebrew stuff. The fcosmic olklore comes from Allen's "Star Names Their Lore and Meaning." I quote heavily from it in my own soon to published work since its copyright has expired. The book is also considered to be one of the best on the topic. Ann Wright has a constellation web site which quotes him extensively also.

The souls being weighed is standard Egyptian Book of the Dead stuff.

Yeh I got the soul weighing, but have never once in my life studied astrology, the last piece of the jigsaw.

I take it you can get Allen's book on project gutenberg, right?

It is available online for most part of it (see here)
There's a huge disclaimer in the opening remarks however:
"The three principal shortcomings of the book are that it is not as systematic as the subject deserves, sometimes a downright jumble of ancient languages and afterthoughts and digressions and backtracking; that the astronomy predates Palomar and the Hubble telescope, radar and quasars, by decades and decades and is best taken lightly, as a window into the late 19c rather than into the stuff of the Universe; and, most seriously, that the sources are condensed, for the most part uncited, and — worst of all — trusted."

The trouble is (as with most mythical tales) there's not one ultimate source for such clarifications. It's a mixed up thing running throug all kinds of ages and cultures.

The idea that 'heaven' has a double meaning (i.e. the sky and afterlife) is indeed interesting and it seems to mean that our ancestors wouldn't agree with us that it has double meaning. To them it was one and the same. This is in accordance with genesis and the word 'heaven' througout the bible. This means that biased christian bible interpreters would have to leave out the meaning of the word that clearly is denied by modern science. To claim that after your death you really go up in the sky nowadays is plain silly.

The book is solid for folklore information. It was written before scientific dating. Hence you will get incorrect statement that certain temples and civilizations are 10,000 years old. These are to be discounted. I don't let a few incorrect statements ruin the enormity of his work.

[Anto Kennedy]

Rulers became stars and common souls became part of the Milky Way. Meteors were seen as souls coming to earth to enter the body. The heavens had gates. Souls would enter via Cancer and leave via Capricorn.

I don't really see the afterlife-heaven connection myself. I've never seen anything that would lend to the theory that the ancients believed that we became stars after we died.

The Creation accounts of various cultures speak of the stars and planets being set in motion before mankind, even the animals, roamed the earth.

In Genesis, the lights in the heavens are formed after the plant kingdom,

14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

(Genesis 14-20)

Hesiod's Theogony likewise describes the creation of the starry sky, before any soul had been born.

And Earth first bare starry Heaven, equal to herself, to cover her on every side, and to be an ever-sure abiding-place for the blessed gods.

I'm not even sure ancient religious teachers even believed in Astrology, sounds like something a spoiled prince would get involved with because he's got too much time on his hands (and obviously there are conmen willing to provide that service)

The whole idea behind weaving stories and myths around constellations, (and even the formation of the constellations themselves) is just to make it easier for sailors and timekeepers to memorise their local star map. In exactly the same way that those guys that can memorise the order of cards in a 52 deck in just 3 minutes by constructing a myth e.g. the Lovely Queen, wanted 6 Diamonds, so she asked the Black Jack, how much it would cost, 9 Rubies, he says, but the Diamond King intercedes, and 5 lumps of Coal ......etc.

So if you want to find your way home in an age before GPS and mobile phones, just follow the goat for 5 miles, go west untill you see the handle of the pan and then go southeast for 2 miles. If you see the hunter aiming his bow at the crab, then you've taken the wrong turn somewhere.

Occams Razor.

[LEDO]

Rulers became stars and common souls became part of the Milky Way. Meteors were seen as souls coming to earth to enter the body. The heavens had gates. Souls would enter via Cancer and leave via Capricorn.

I don't really see the afterlife-heaven connection myself. I've never seen anything that would lend to the theory that the ancients believed that we became stars after we died.

The Creation accounts of various cultures speak of the stars and planets being set in motion before mankind, even the animals, roamed the earth.

In Genesis, the lights in the heavens are formed after the plant kingdom,

14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

(Genesis 14-20)

Hesiod's Theogony likewise describes the creation of the starry sky, before any soul had been born.

And Earth first bare starry Heaven, equal to herself, to cover her on every side, and to be an ever-sure abiding-place for the blessed gods.

I'm not even sure ancient religious teachers even believed in Astrology, sounds like something a spoiled prince would get involved with because he's got too much time on his hands (and obviously there are conmen willing to provide that service)

The whole idea behind weaving stories and myths around constellations, (and even the formation of the constellations themselves) is just to make it easier for sailors and timekeepers to memorise their local star map. In exactly the same way that those guys that can memorise the order of cards in a 52 deck in just 3 minutes by constructing a myth e.g. the Lovely Queen, wanted 6 Diamonds, so she asked the Black Jack, how much it would cost, 9 Rubies, he says, but the Diamond King intercedes, and 5 lumps of Coal ......etc.

So if you want to find your way home in an age before GPS and mobile phones, just follow the goat for 5 miles, go west untill you see the handle of the pan and then go southeast for 2 miles. If you see the hunter aiming his bow at the crab, then you've taken the wrong turn somewhere.

Occams Razor.

You are mistaken and misinformed.

Zodiac mosaic from Jewish Synagogue

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

You are mistaken and misinformed.

Not so much much misinformed as bloody minded,and a little irrational;


The clue is a classic argument from incredulity. viz:

I don't really see the afterlife-heaven connection myself. I've never seen anything that would lend to the theory that the ancients believed that we became stars after we died.

"I've seen no evidence " is a perfectly reasonable position to take,IF one is willing to then consider new evidence presented. To dismiss new evidence because it doesn't fit one's preconceived ideas is a definition of the closed mind,albeit very common,especially amongst dogmatic theists.

Ledo, I'm sure you're aware the explanation [of SOME cultural beliefs] you've given is in no way esoteric,but pretty widely known,at least by scholars.

[Anto Kennedy]

There's nothing occult about the zodiac. It's presence in a Jewish synagogue means nothing, at least not what you are claiming.

I have never come across a "scholar", as Padraig puts it, back that theory.

Rulers became stars and common souls became part of the Milky Way which the ancients correctly deduced was a group of stars. Meteors were seen as souls coming to earth to enter the body. The heavens had gates. Souls would enter via Cancer and leave via Capricorn.

Evidence for these wild claims would be appreciated.

I reiterate, Heaven is Heaven, just the sky, nothing else.

[LEDO]

There's nothing occult about the zodiac. It's presence in a Jewish synagogue means nothing, at least not what you are claiming.

I have never come across a "scholar", as Padraig puts it, back that theory.

Rulers became stars and common souls became part of the Milky Way which the ancients correctly deduced was a group of stars. Meteors were seen as souls coming to earth to enter the body. The heavens had gates. Souls would enter via Cancer and leave via Capricorn.

Evidence for these wild claims would be appreciated.

I reiterate, Heaven is Heaven, just the sky, nothing else.

The previously mentioned Allen's book is my evidence for my "wild claims." Try to keep up.
Richard H. Allen, Star Names, Their Lore and Meaning (Dover Publishing, 1963),
107.
“[A]ccording to Chaldaean [sic] and Platonist philosophy, it [Cancer] was supposed
Gate of Men through which souls descended from heaven into human bodies.”

I am not sure what you mean by occult. The Babylonian Talmud is full of astrological discussions. There are also astrological references in the DSS and even the Bible. There is much evidence that there is an underlying cosmic myth within the Bible itself. However, the enormity of such evidence to overcome the status quo, can not be expressed in a forum. That is why I wrote a book (100,000+ words) to explain the details of the cosmic myth which presents itself in the Bible. It will soon be out in paper back from Booksurge: "On Earth as it is in Heaven" subtitle: "The Cosmic Roots of the Bible." Older working copies are available from Lulu publishers, although I don't recommend the as I have added some important discoveries to the text and have not updated them in Lulu.

The cosmic myth idea of Judaism is not new. Its presence in a number of Jewish synagogues does mean something, especially in one of them they place the Greeek god Helios. The synagagoues from that same time period to the south of Judea, do not have the mosaics, but rather they write the names of the zodiac signs on the walls of the synagogue. This is very significant as it demonstrates that the zodiac played a role in their religion.

16th century astronomers attempted to place Bible stories in the constellations as did earlier Kabbalah texts. The midrashim alters OT stories to conform with Greek cosmic myths, whereby we can draw parallels and make comparisons to Arabic and Babylonian astrology. The synagogues and midrashim?talmud date the astrology connection to 200 AD or so. The DSS scrolls take us back to 100 BCE.

The book of Matthew is a fusion of ancient astrology from Babylon circa 2000 BCE with the prevailing Greek and Roman views (manger, inn, riding the ass.)

The OT is primarily Arab and Babylonian astrology. There is however later astrological views inserted into the text. This had the effect, in many cases, of creating contradictions, similar to the way contradictions were created in Gilgamesh through the addition of texts (Tigay).

I agree the ancients thought heaven was the sky, and the sky was heaven.

---

There's nothing occult about the zodiac. It's presence in a Jewish synagogue means nothing, at least not what you are claiming.

I have never come across a "scholar", as Padraig puts it, back that theory.

Rulers became stars and common souls became part of the Milky Way which the ancients correctly deduced was a group of stars. Meteors were seen as souls coming to earth to enter the body. The heavens had gates. Souls would enter via Cancer and leave via Capricorn.

Evidence for these wild claims would be appreciated.

I reiterate, Heaven is Heaven, just the sky, nothing else.

The previously mentioned Allen's book is my evidence for my "wild claims." Try to keep up.
Richard H. Allen, Star Names, Their Lore and Meaning (Dover Publishing, 1963),
107.
“[A]ccording to Chaldaean [sic] and Platonist philosophy, it [Cancer] was supposed
Gate of Men through which souls descended from heaven into human bodies.”

I am not sure what you mean by occult. The Babylonian Talmud is full of astrological discussions. There are also astrological references in the DSS and even the Bible. There is much evidence that there is an underlying cosmic myth within the Bible itself. However, the enormity of such evidence to overcome the status quo, can not be expressed in a forum. That is why I wrote a book (100,000+ words) to explain the details of the cosmic myth which presents itself in the Bible. It will soon be out in paper back from Booksurge: "On Earth as it is in Heaven" subtitle: "The Cosmic Roots of the Bible." Older working copies are available from Lulu publishers, although I don't recommend the as I have added some important discoveries to the text and have not updated them in Lulu.

The cosmic myth idea of Judaism is not new. Its presence in a number of Jewish synagogues does mean something, especially in one of them they place the Greeek god Helios. The synagagoues from that same time period to the south of Judea, do not have the mosaics, but rather they write the names of the zodiac signs on the walls of the synagogue. This is very significant as it demonstrates that the zodiac played a role in their religion.

16th century astronomers attempted to place Bible stories in the constellations as did earlier Kabbalah texts. The midrashim alters OT stories to conform with Greek cosmic myths, whereby we can draw parallels and make comparisons to Arabic and Babylonian astrology. The synagogues and midrashim?talmud date the astrology connection to 200 AD or so. The DSS scrolls take us back to 100 BCE.

The book of Matthew is a fusion of ancient astrology from Babylon circa 2000 BCE with the prevailing Greek and Roman views (manger, inn, riding the ass.)

The OT is primarily Arab and Babylonian astrology. There is however later astrological views inserted into the text. This had the effect, in many cases, of creating contradictions, similar to the way contradictions were created in Gilgamesh through the addition of texts (Tigay).

I agree the ancients thought heaven was the sky, and the sky was heaven.