Imagine A World Without Religion.

[Whateverist]

Well ... if all that wasted time creates some pretty stained glass, some nice architecture or a pretty bit of music .. what's the harm?

Wasted time didn't create the pretty stained glass, the architecture or the music though did it.

No but who knows where inspiration comes from? If some artists need God as a crutch and it allows them to do good work, I support them .. although I wouldn't want my daughter to marry one of course.

[Napoléon]

No but who knows where inspiration comes from? If some artists need God as a crux and it allows them to do good work, I support them .. although I wouldn't want my daughter to marry one of course.

Well I'm of the opinion that you don't need god to get inspiration. Doesn't mean to say that I think anyone who uses god as an inspiration is a poor artist, but I do think they would simply draw inspiration from elsewhere if those foolish beliefs weren't around.

[Whateverist]

Must be my agnostic side coming to the surface again. Human societies are so complex that it is hard to say exactly what damage may be done by trying to extricate all religion. Perhaps it is like an inoperable tumor. Or it might actually contribute something to our psyches which we don't quite understand. I'm for letting it die a natural death while fighting off its attempts to insinuate itself beyond the church, mosque, sanctuary or temple.

[jonb]

I think wasting time is a good thing, come on sit down have a drink, all work and no play makes jack a dull boy.

[Tempus]

I don't think religion disappearing is necessarily a good thing. Perhaps the disappearance of the more dogmatic religions (or sub-sects of) is a necessary precondition for a more flourishing society. I don't know. I object to the notion that prayer and other religious practices are always a waste of time. While I agree mumbling to yourself "dear gawd pls keep grandma safe and get me a new bike, x-bawx, etc" before bed is useless (and, in a way, subtly harmful), not all prayer involves that. Deep introspection is something I consider important and lacking in many people and, from what I've learned, prayer can offer the opportunity for that. Is prayer necessary or exclusively for that? No, it's not. But I think too many people, although acknowledging them, downplay the positive roles religion can serve. [editted to add: additionally, criticising (and praising) religion with generalisations is difficult and usually inaccurate. The word 'religion' is like 'sport' and encompasses so many different practices. Ice skating, when watched, is almost like art at times, whereas a game of American football or rugby can look like war. That nuance is lost in the haste to generalise.]

My own opinion is that religious roles can be fulfilled outside of the context of religion. I think many (Western, at least - I'm pretty ignorant of Eastern religions) religious attitudes are ultimately limiting. At the end of the day you still need to accept some core propositions which can't be contradicted. Whereas in my own worldview, for example, I can question and totally overturn anything; nothing is off limits. I imagine the reason many people, consciously or unconsciously, adopt a pre-existing, somewhat limited view is because it's a lot of work to figure out your own and the freedom (which so many people supposedly value) is dizzying and frightening. Also, if you're in pursuit of truth, you may encounter inconclusive answers / shades of grey and have to tolerate the ambiguity. The search for truth is antithetical to the presuppositional religious traditions, which is why I consider them limited.

I don't really know what the hell my point is or why I started typing. I will say, however, that I think many of the non-religious are just as limited in some respects as their religious counterparts. If you have some fundamental value or goal that cannot be questioned, that cannot in principle (even if it doesn't actually occur in practice) be overturned, how are you any more liberated than the uncompromising religious you criticize?

[Whateverist]

I don't think religion disappearing is necessarily a good thing. Perhaps the disappearance of the more dogmatic religions (or sub-sects of) is a necessary precondition for a more flourishing society. I don't know. I object to the notion that prayer and other religious practices are always a waste of time.

Very good point. Potentially prayer can be a ritualized opportunity to open oneself to deeper insight. Logic has its place but is only of any use for building upon what you already consciously know, and for vouchsafing insights obtained in a non-rational manner. Intuition, feeling, inspiration, reflection, dreams perhaps, maybe prayer .. are all non rational ways of sniffing out what is significant or understanding the greater contexts of ones milieu.

I wonder what limits there may be to understanding rationally the workings of these non rational processes. All I know for sure is being open to them is what makes me feel most alive. Einstein said "The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant." There is value in rationally concluding that there are limits to rationality. Rationality serves the intuitive mind by looking for what case can be made for the hunches which it presents. Rationality without humility is sterile.

Seeking to eliminate religion when prayer done correctly can be so powerful is an example of rationality over-reaching.

My own opinion is that religious roles can be fulfilled outside of the context of religion. I think many (Western, at least - I'm pretty ignorant of Eastern religions) religious attitudes are ultimately limiting. At the end of the day you still need to accept some core propositions which can't be contradicted. Whereas in my own worldview, for example, I can question and totally overturn anything; nothing is off limits. I imagine the reason many people, consciously or unconsciously, adopt a pre-existing, somewhat limited view is because it's a lot of work to figure out your own and the freedom (which so many people supposedly value) is dizzying and frightening. Also, if you're in pursuit of truth, you may encounter inconclusive answers / shades of grey and have to tolerate the ambiguity. The search for truth is antithetical to the presuppositional religious traditions, which is why I consider them limited.

That is what I object to about religion. So many religious people make no use of prayer as openness. They have no faith whatsoever in a greater intelligence which can make itself known to them. Instead they read the bible like a lawyer examining a contract. Religion fails to create for them a context in which they can consciously and rationally serve their intuitive minds because they cling to the revealed facts of the bible. But just because religion done poorly has no value doesn't mean it doesn't also have the capacity when done correctly to deepen human experience and provide meaning. I'm not ready to condemn religion to the garbage heap until we understand all this much better and can find adequate alternative means to the same higher ends.

[DeistPaladin]

Religion at the best of times brings stagnation on both scientific and sociological progress and wastes great resources to no good end.

Very often, the price of religious faith is discussed in terms of the "holy" wars and atrocities against non-believers, but this focus doesn't take in the total cost.

I remember once visiting the campus of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. I expected to find a few buildings but instead found myself in a sprawling complex, as big as the universities I've visited. Imagine if this complex were devoted to the study of something useful. The sheer waste of human resources, time and money boggled my mind. Even when religion is "peaceful" and behaves within civilized norms, it represents a huge and needless burden.

[jonb]

A plea for waste,
Imagine a world without waste, clinical efficient, everything precisely measured to complete its roll without excess. It would be a world without evolution as there would be no genetic variation to work from, as it would be inefficient, to have variation that seemed to have no purpose. As that world could not change it would ways be venerable to slight knock.
In anything creative you have to be prepaid for waste, you have to follow paths without knowing the out come, for every great idea there are probably millions of stupid ones, and the only way to separate the two is to test them. Could it be argued that humanity had to test out the idea of a god in different ways so that it could find them all lacking and move on to atheism. How can you tell what will be a waste until it has been tested, and how could you move into the unknown without that waste.
Just look on those christians wasting stuff as a desperate attempt to catch us up.

[TaraJo]

I don't think there would be a big difference. Some great men have been influenced by religious beliefs, some evil men have been influenced by religious beliefs. Some atheists are also good, some are evil. Most of the disagreements and debates and hatred we have now would have just taken another form.

[System of Solace]

I remember a famous atheist talking about this same thing-almost. If all religions on earth vanished overnight, others would surely take their place. Completely different religions. It it simply human nature. If you are implying that religion would not appear again, then that is of course something different. Without doubt there would be much less hatred and conflict in the world. There is the possibility of some negative effects, but I could not imagine them being very significant.