Personal revelation vs. free will

[Cinjin]

Regarding OP:

Often the common response is that: "Even though god revealed himself, the person still had 'free will' in choosing whether or not to obey him."

It's a bull shit cop out of an explanation, but I've heard it before. What I find more interesting than the possible violation of "free-will" (which is already the biggest fucking joke in the bible), is that for some people, most living at or before the time of JC, god seems to completely waive the whole faith stipulation that he requires of the rest of us.

It's bull shit! I submit that Moses, Abraham, Isaac, the Apostles, and the multitudes of others never had to have any faith whatsoever. They had the hte supreme deity himself right in front of them. If the godboy was real, than they were truly never believers, but merely witnesses to a fact. I find this yet another repulsive attribute of the Babble. The rules constantly shift while god plays favorites and decides who of the billions of souls is going to be lucky enough to get the easy ticket home.



Obvious bull shit is obvious.

[Cyberman]

-In the absence of an actual explanation.....any answer will do.-

In the words of the prophet (me) - in an emergency, any tool becomes a hammer.

[Drich]

Regarding OP:

Often the common response is that: "Even though god revealed himself, the person still had 'free will' in choosing whether or not to obey him."

It's a bull shit cop out of an explanation, but I've heard it before. What I find more interesting than the possible violation of "free-will" (which is already the biggest fucking joke in the bible), is that for some people, most living at or before the time of JC, god seems to completely waive the whole faith stipulation that he requires of the rest of us.

It's bull shit! I submit that Moses, Abraham, Isaac, the Apostles, and the multitudes of others never had to have any faith whatsoever. They had the hte supreme deity himself right in front of them. If the godboy was real, than they were truly never believers, but merely witnesses to a fact. I find this yet another repulsive attribute of the Babble. The rules constantly shift while god plays favorites and decides who of the billions of souls is going to be lucky enough to get the easy ticket home.



Obvious bull shit is obvious.

the writer of Hebrews seems to have a different understanding of those people and faith:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...rsion=NKJV

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The title's rather self-explanatory, really, but I can expand since I don't remember seeing it addresed before. As far as I've been able to piece it together, the only source of information regarding God and all related aspects of the character is that well-known Big Book of Multiple Choice, the 'Holy' Bible. The mythology contained therein is what defines the God character, and we 'know' the mythology to be true because God is the equivalent of Thunderf00t's creation, The Ghost That Cannot Lie. In other words, the bible is true because God says it's true and we know God is real because the bible says it is and so on and so on. The lie is safe because it guards itself (Blake's 7 reference, for my fellow geeks out there.)

However, that's not the bit that interests me, in terms of this thread anyway. No, the thing I find hard to wrap my brain around is this idea of personal revelation. It's the card that is usually played once the believer gets close to the edge of realisation that it might all just be a story, because that's the only source they have. We've seen it time and again: "I know God is real because He has revealed Himself to me in such a way that it cannot be denied".

So my question to all that would be: what price free will in all this? If God (or Allah, or Quetzecoatl) appeared in front of you in a manner that took away all doubt of its reality and authenticity, hasn't your free will been taken away?

Anyway, a simple question, I'm sure, but I'm hoping to see what our resident believers think about it. Anyone and everyone's opinion is more than welcome, of course.

Free will is removed when one's instinct for self preservation over takes their will to rebell. The indivisual will is suppressed for the sake of eternal life. which seems to be the case with everyone I have spoken with here. "In that if God only provided absolute proof I would obey." However if one does not care to live with a given deity forever and is not afraid to face destruction or eternal damnation then free will is restored.

For instance If Allah turns out to be "the God" then I (baring devine intervention) would still spit in his eye, and gladly accept my eternal fate.

[Cyberman]

I'm shocked - isn't your pet religion the One True Faith™? Regardless, if your beliefs turn out to be wrong, you are in exactly the same boat as we godless heathens who do not even share your beliefs. Unless you ascribe to Pascal's Wager, what will your own pet religion ultimately bring you that our lack of one will not?

I'm not even going to get into the argument about Allah and the god of the xtian bible being the same character. That's a cudgel someone else can take up in another thread.

[jonb]

When I got to the age of manhood, I told my father that some of his ideas were wrong, and he was proud of a son that could think for himself. My son is reaching that age, he thinks for himself, has a view point of his own tells me I'm a c$%£, and and I am full of pride that I have brought up a sentient being, to being able to use his mind, and one day I think he may surpass where I am.
Now, it does not matter to me how powerful a being is, if it cannot follow that code it should be broken. Anything that demands me or any sentient being to sublimate itself and worship that thing is intolerable. It is pure luck for me there is no such thing.

[Cyberman]

I count myself lucky in my upbringing myself. My parents taught me to read, with all the explorative curiosity that opens up for a young mind, before I even started school. Also they encouraged my interest, nay fascination, with space and the Universe. I think it helped growing up in seventies Britain, a childhood filled with the Golden Age of Doctor Who, Star Trek, and later of course Blake's 7 and proper Star Wars, all of which fuelled my imagination and interest with a Universe that had neither room nor need for gods.

What saddens me (and I've said this often enough) is that with all the historical knowledge regarding religion and its purpose as a means of socio-political control, there are still people who want to shackle themselves to the damn thing of their own volition. I would never want to outlaw religion even if I had the power so to do; however I do dream of a future - hopefully within the upcoming generations - in which we as a race have outgrown the need for such security blankets.

[Drich]

I'm shocked - isn't your pet religion the One True Faith™? Regardless, if your beliefs turn out to be wrong, you are in exactly the same boat as we godless heathens who do not even share your beliefs. Unless you ascribe to Pascal's Wager, what will your own pet religion ultimately bring you that our lack of one will not?

I'm not even going to get into the argument about Allah and the god of the xtian bible being the same character. That's a cudgel someone else can take up in another thread.

What do you mean by: "the One True Faith™?"

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When I got to the age of manhood, I told my father that some of his ideas were wrong, and he was proud of a son that could think for himself. My son is reaching that age, he thinks for himself, has a view point of his own tells me I'm a c$%£, and and I am full of pride that I have brought up a sentient being, to being able to use his mind, and one day I think he may surpass where I am.
Now, it does not matter to me how powerful a being is, if it cannot follow that code it should be broken. Anything that demands me or any sentient being to sublimate itself and worship that thing is intolerable. It is pure luck for me there is no such thing.

How is what you have done for your son any different than what God has done for us through Christ on the cross?

[Cyberman]

What do I mean by "the One True Faith™? Ok, I'll hold your hand for you. Are all the thousands of different religious faiths true, or lead to the truth (whatever that is supposed to be in a religious context)? Most if not all of them are totally incompatible with all the others. You yourself said that you would deny and decry Allah were you to come face-to-face with the character in the afterlife. How about - and I'm thinking off the top of my head here - Ganesh, the elephant god? Or Kali? What about Quetzecoatl, or Mithras etc etc etc? I'm no expert on comparative religions but I'm fairly certain that most if not all have very severe punishments for being a follower of some competing religion instead of the one peculiar to 'your' particular region and culture (speaking generally here rather than you specifically).

For example, what are the biblical rules for dealing with followers of 'rival' gods?

Bottom line is: clearly not all of these mutually-competing faiths and religions can be right simultaneously. But they can all be wrong.

[jonb]

How is what you have done for your son any different than what God has done for us through Christ on the cross?

Coming from a Christian, I will take that as a complement, I'm having a tee shirt made so I can show it to the Pope. Unfortunately the desire of a mythical deity that I believe and worship is the exact opposite, of what I wish from my son.

[downbeatplumb]

The lie is safe because it guards itself (Blake's 7 reference, for my fellow geeks out there.)

I saw all of Blakes 7 and don't get this reference.

Please refresh my memory.