How Free Will and Omniscience Works

[idunno]

apophenia,

would you clarify what you mean by "cannot" choose otherwise?

[Angrboda]

apophenia,

would you clarify what you mean by "cannot" choose otherwise?

When philosophers discuss free will, they often invoke the idea that, for any given choice or act, the individual "could have done otherwise." Typically, though, it comes up in the context of compatibilist arguments of free will, and the "could have done otherwise" is framed in terms of possible worlds and counterfactuals, ala David Lewis. In their argument, we can imagine a world just like the one that existed prior to the act or choice, but which from that point diverges from this world in which the choice was not made. I must confess to not fully understanding Lewis' work, nor the use of it by people like Dennett, but it seems to require either special abilities or causal laws, or some sort of ontological privileging of what goes on inside a human as being fundamentally disconnected from what goes on outside it. I find neither formulation satisfactory.

You posit, implicitly, a similar type of "could have done otherwise," were it not for what he chose to do. Are you positing a form of dualism, ala classic theology, a shift in meaning in the form of a compatibilist account, or a purely metaphysical libertarian view that, determined or not, we still have choice.

What has to be added or taken away from a beast whose actions are purely a consequence of determinate facts at time t-1, which are determined at t-2, t-3, t-4 ... all the way into the past before the person was born.

What does your view of free will propose as distinguishing what we have, according to you, and what we would have if our minds were just computing devices, mindlessly grinding through line after line of code, helpless to deviate from the program in any way.

How is the human who could have voted Democrat or Republican, but voted Democrat, different, than a human whose mind was destined to choose Democrat by the facts of his mind the moment before deciding, which were determined by the facts just the moment before that, and so on, in to infinity.

(And note, I'm not implying pre-destination, that all are choices are predetermined, only that our choices are determined by natural cause and effect, and there is no non-natural nor non-deterministic event in the stream of cause and effect.)

[idunno]

You have no idea how BIG the grin is on my face right now . I love talking about free will in and outside of theological contexts. Excellent post.

I will point out that the thought experiment says nothing of the nature of free will the voter has. He could have any type of free will. The point is free will, whatever type, doesn't necessitate the PAP.

In regards to my own position on free will, whether libertarian or compatibilist in nature, I'm undecided at this point. As you know, it not a simplistic concept. I find that there's both theological and philosophical wiggle room on the issue.

Cheers

[The Grand Nudger]

Absolutely, trouble is, whichever way you wriggle while invoking theology (specifically christian theology) you end up with a douche-god.

[idunno]

Genuinely not trying to be presumptuous here, but is this settled?

[Godscreated]

For those who may not have read the other thread, in it I said that the only free will man has is to love God or not to love God, and outside of that all bets are off, simple really if one will search through the scriptures and find out what God says.

[Lion IRC]

Amen Godschild.
It really does boil down to that in Christian theology.

[FallentoReason]

For those who may not have read the other thread, in it I said that the only free will man has is to love God or not to love God, and outside of that all bets are off, simple really if one will search through the scriptures and find out what God says.

Isn't this the particular belief of a denomination that says the only choice we ever get in life is to accept God or not? The rest is predetermined.

If so, please explain how that works out? Look at me; because of my external circumstances that I cannot control due to no free will I have been led to exercise my only bit of free will (accept/reject God) and managed to pick wrongly and send myself to hell eventually. The silly thing about all of this is that God knew this from the beginning. What sort of joke is that?

[Godscreated]

---

For those who may not have read the other thread, in it I said that the only free will man has is to love God or not to love God, and outside of that all bets are off, simple really if one will search through the scriptures and find out what God says.

---

Isn't this the particular belief of a denomination that says the only choice we ever get in life is to accept God or not? The rest is predetermined.

If so, please explain how that works out? Look at me; because of my external circumstances that I cannot control due to no free will I have been led to exercise my only bit of free will (accept/reject God) and managed to pick wrongly and send myself to hell eventually. The silly thing about all of this is that God knew this from the beginning. What sort of joke is that?

If it is I'm not a believer in predetermination, God will allow you many choices in life and not sway you one way or the other, that does not mean He want have some control over your life. He will exert what He wills to bring redemption to it's final conclusion, you will never know He is using your life for His purpose as long as you are not a christian. Actually many Christians do not have a relationship deep enough to realize God is working through them, that is really a shame, they miss out on the joy that can come with that experience. God's work is no joke, if it were I'm sure you would hear Him laughing.

[idunno]

For those who may not have read the other thread, in it I said that the only free will man has is to love God or not to love God, and outside of that all bets are off, simple really if one will search through the scriptures and find out what God says.

I created this thread to show that the dilemma of omniscience and free will is a false one. What do you think of what I've said?