The Problem of Evil: A Primer for Atheists (pre-discusson)

[Vincenzo Vinny G.]

So tldr: You're partly right. The fundie Christians heads are spinning the moment you mention anything other than John 3:16, but there are very knowledgeable and intelligent Christians out there too whose beliefs happen to be supported by reality, if not science.

Which ones?

If you have to ask, you know you're in trouble.

[Jackalope]

Stellar argument.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

If you have to ask, you know you're in trouble.

A patronising ad hominem. You are beginning to become quite tedious.

Answer the fucking question.

[Vincenzo Vinny G.]

I'm not going to waste my time in line-by-line Fisking exercises. It bores me. Reformat your post. Make it look more readable and I'll respond.

[idunno]

Does anyone believe the Logical PoE is a sound argument against Christianity?

[Tempus]

Stellar argument.

[Jackalope]

Does anyone believe the Logical PoE is a sound argument against Christianity?

I wouldn't call it an argument against xtianity per se, as the argument predates it, however...

I believe it's one of many reasonable arguments against any deity claimed to be omniscient, omnipotent, and benevolent (omni- or otherwise). However, of a deity who didn't possess those traits, Epicurus would probably say "Why call him god?"

As to whether it is sound, I cannot say. What precisely is a g/God?

The question of a deity's existence or validity of worship of said deity is wholly uninteresting to me without establishing the claimed nature and properties of such a being. If there is a god or gods, I am unaware of them, and frankly, am about as interested in them as they appear to be in me - which is to say, not at all.

[Lion IRC]

Does anyone believe the Logical PoE is a sound argument against Christianity?

Unsurprisingly, I dont.

I think the existence of good/evil supports Christian doctrine.

The atheist who thinks there's no such thing as good/evil has a much better developed atheology than the atheist who needs someone to blame FOR the existence and consequences of evil.

I would be interested to ask any atheist parents here, why/if they brought children into a world where they knew there is pain and evil. Is it moral to bring children into such a world?

[idunno]

Does anyone believe the Logical PoE is a sound argument against Christianity?

I wouldn't call it an argument against xtianity per se, as the argument predates it, however...

I believe it's one of many reasonable arguments against any deity claimed to be omniscient, omnipotent, and benevolent (omni- or otherwise). However, of a deity who didn't possess those traits, Epicurus would probably say "Why call him god?"

As to whether it is sound, I cannot say. What precisely is a g/God?

The question of a deity's existence or validity of worship of said deity is wholly uninteresting to me without establishing the claimed nature and properties of such a being. If there is a god or gods, I am unaware of them, and frankly, am about as interested in them as they appear to be in me - which is to say, not at all.

I think here's where I roll out the cheesy line, "He's interested in you"

Sure, it wasn't initially directed towards Christianity but it is being used today by some. I don't think it is a sound argument if the claim is that the existence of God and evil are mutually exclusive. You could turn it into a probabilistic argument as Vinny has suggested, but nobody can stand him apparently.

Vinny, if you aren't a poe and truly want to encourage more rigorous thinking (and I'd humbly suggest irenic approach to the debate) among your fellow atheists you may have to lose that accent and change your approach.

[Jackalope]

I think here's where I roll out the cheesy line, "He's interested in you"

And this is where I roll out "Not demonstrably so to my satisfaction".

Incidentally, I used to be a serious christian (as were many of our members), I gave it up in the late 1980's - but these days, even if I were absolutely convinced that the christian god exists as described in the bible, and as many denominations worship, I would not be a christian. Christianity has nothing to offer me, I have no use for salvation, and have no desire for eternal life or heaven.

I don't think it is a sound argument if the claim is that the existence of God and evil are mutually exclusive.

I don't either, for some definitions of "god". That's why I'm not particularly interested in the topic without first clearly and specifically defining what we mean by "god" and his claimed properties first. Oh, and "evil" as well, and any other terms with definitions that are often abused.

I've seen far too many arguments (particularly over the implications of things such as free will, omniscience, and such) degenerate over fundamental differences and shifting definitions of what is meant by those terms.

I'm not a fan of moving goalposts (intentional or not), debating ill-defined arguments, or arguing against strawmen or incorrect assumptions about what I (or others) believe, and I'll quickly bow out of one that heads in that direction. Frankly, most of the arguments and apologetics are unoriginal and I've seen them batted around online in one form or another since the 1980's.

Vinny, if you aren't a poe and truly want to encourage more rigorous thinking (and I'd humbly suggest irenic approach to the debate) among your fellow atheists you may have to lose that accent and change your approach.

On this, we are in violent agreement.