Democratic Party drops "God" in its platform

[Anomalocaris]

However, I'd say it's actually weird to hear that zionism is actually a part of political platforms of parties in the US. I wonder why.

Because America is undisciplined in its approach to nationhood and interest, so in its approach to international relationships it is easily swooned by amateurish flimflam that seems expedient for serving the various short-term purposes of domestic political fractions.

Close indentification with Israel in the current situation would be an major diseaster for America's ability to protect its hegemonic position in the world against competing powers such as China and Russia. It would be instrumental in America's inability to secure a ring of containment around China and Russia in western and central Asia.

[Phish]

Yes, but I am asking why you support Jewish nationalism. Supporting the Jewish state is one thing, supporting their ideolgy is another.
As far as I'm concerned, the US is not a Jewish state, and was not founded by Jews either.
The fact that you have a Jewish minority does not mean that you ought to support a Jewish-exclusive ideology.
That is the reason why they support zionism, you say.

Well, not all, I'd say.

Jewish nationalism? Jewish ideology? .....Why do you dislike Jews?

[Anomalocaris]

[
Because in the 1940's Germany allied with Italy, Austria, Japan, Turkey , and many more started Word War Two which led to the extermination of 12 million people, including 6 million JEWS. So we gave them Isreal back, what would you like us to do? give them Germany?

It is so magnanimously righteous of us to give what is not ours out from under those who had no part in the excuse we invoke.

[The Grand Nudger]

Yeah, you know, I've gotta say, "giving them Germany" probably would have been a little sturdier.

[A Theist]

Jewish nationalism? Jewish ideology? .....Why do you dislike Jews?

It's not about disliking Jews, friend. I actually praise the Jews for their particular brand of nationalism. It's inspiring, and a good example what nationalistically motivated people can archive.
I extensively use the example of Israel against those who say that a unified Turkic state cannot be archived.
But I'm just wondering why America has chosen to protect Jewish nationalism whereas the Jews are more than capable of doing so.

Whenever I hear 'Zionism', 'Zionists', and 'Nationalism' to describe Israel, they're used in derogatory terms. That's especially true when Muslim countries use those terms when speaking of Israel. Though not the established state religion, Islam is the dominant religion of Turkey. What do you mean, Jewish Nationalism and Jewish Ideology?

[kılıç_mehmet]

It's not about disliking Jews, friend. I actually praise the Jews for their particular brand of nationalism. It's inspiring, and a good example what nationalistically motivated people can archive.
I extensively use the example of Israel against those who say that a unified Turkic state cannot be archived.
But I'm just wondering why America has chosen to protect Jewish nationalism whereas the Jews are more than capable of doing so.

Because in the 1940's Germany allied with Italy, Austria, Japan, Turkey , and many more started Word War Two which led to the extermination of 12 million people, including 6 million JEWS. So we gave them Isreal back, what would you like us to do? give them Germany?

I guess you have your history wrong, sir, Germany did not ally itself with Austria, it annexed Austria, and Turkey was certainly not allied with Germany, nor the Allies and their Soviet friends, until we were positive that we would be joining on the winning side. Of course, during these times, many mistakes were made, one was to allow the red menace to spread it's deceitful agenda within our borders.
As for Israel, I think this was not so much of a reparation from your part, as Germany was forced to pay the lot of it, while you gained a reliable ally, one who had no other agenda besides it's own, one who was alien to the area, and one who was fighting for a certain cause.

Now you have your ally, and you want it to be there, so you support it.
But why support the ideology itself? When you supported the Afghan mujahaddin in the Soviet invasion, you didn't put "La ilahe illallah Muhammeden resulullah" in your political platforms, did you now?

Close indentification with Israel in the current situation would be an major diseaster for America's ability to protect its hegemonic position in the world against competing powers such as China and Russia. It would be instrumental in America's inability to secure a ring of containment around China and Russia in western and central Asia.

Well, the US has been in desperate search for more allies in the mid-east. It surely lost Turkey, at least whatever support as a people we had for the US as a NATO ally, is now gone. You need another allied state, but this one ought to be muslim. And I think the greater middle eastern project is to supply you with those...Just divide the middle east into more smaller fractions, and you'll have an easier hand in keepin up that hegemony. But this has all been talked over before.
Maps of this are circulating around...

Whenever I hear 'Zionism', 'Zionists', and 'Nationalism' to describe Israel, they're used in derogatory terms. That's especially true when Muslim countries use those terms when speaking of Israel. Though not the established state religion, Islam is the dominant religion of Turkey. What do you mean, Jewish Nationalism and Jewish Ideology?

Well, obviously it's going to be used under a negative context, for those who are directly affected by the foundation of Israel, I can't say I blame them for it. If I were an arab, I surely would settle for nothing less than the total destruction of the Israeli state.

Islam is the dominant religion in Turkey, true. And lately, there has been a lot of support for the Palestinian Arabs in Turkey. I'm not sure that I understand how we support Palestine, while Palestine has trained communist terrorists throughout these years we had to cope with them? Now, they ask us for help. I can do nothing but to be baffled at this shamelessness. Certainly I do not really have much sympathy for the Israelis either. They came there willingly, knowing that they would be at odds with the arabs living there. Now they fight eachother over a piece of desert.
But the arabs are foolish, and divided. The Jews and their western allies are smart and united. If the arabs were to mount a united offense, neither the Jews, nor their western allies could do anything to prolong the life of the Israeli state.

And what I mean by "Jewish nationalism" and "Jewish ideology", I mean the ideology that lead to the foundation of Israel. Zionism. That's what it is, it is a Jewish ideology, based around nationalism.

[Anomalocaris]

Yeah, you know, I've gotta say, "giving them Germany" probably would have been a little sturdier.

Not possible. Besides reinvogorating the antisemitism such an act would cause in all the rest of Europe, it also contradicts the then current world attitude and develpments:

1. Israel's first great power patron was the Soviet Union, not the United States. When Israel declared its independence the United States hastened to give it recognition but nothing else. The KGB hastened to ship it arms through their puppets in the Czechoslovakia.

2. Until 1956, It was not all together clear that Israel would reliably lean towards the west rather than the Soviet Union. Soviet Union certainly thought Israel had real potential as an ally and a pawn in Soviet efforts to establish a presence in the Mediterranean. The Soviets certainly thought most Jews in the world who are poor and oppressed, as oppose to a few Jews who are rich, ought to naturally lean towards the Soviet Union and away from the west.

3. Prior to formation of Isreal the Soviets actually proposed carving a region of Siberian out to form a semi-autonomous Jewish Republic under the Soviet Union to encourage the Jews of the world to side with Soviet Union rather than the western democracies.

4. The Soviet view of Jewish affinity towards the Soviets is by no means not shared in the west. State Department, even prior to McCarthy, was certainly in agreement.

It was only with rise of the Nazzerite Arab nationalism, with its powerful secular socialist and anti-western learning that Soviet Union shifted its favor from the Israelis to the Arabs.

In some ways, the formation of Israel was seen by the west as a gambit to trump the Soviet effort to coopt the world jewery. It seems at least questionable whether formation of Israel would have occurred were it not for the incipient struggle between the west and USSR.

[Jackalope]

I guess you have your history wrong, sir, Germany did not ally itself with Austria, it annexed Austria, and Turkey was certainly not allied with Germany, nor the Allies and their Soviet friends, until we were positive that we would be joining on the winning side.

You are correct, kılıç. Turkey essential was a non-participant in WW2, joining the Allies (note, not Axis) shortly before the war ended. Turkey did sign a trade agreement with Germany in 1941 and trade did occur (including war materiel), but Turkey certainly was not involved in starting the war and was neutral for most of the duration (until as you say, it was clear who the winning side would be).

I would not say that Turkey was necessarily sympathetic to Germany, but rather acting in her own national interest. Given Turkey's strategic value both in terms of geography and as a source of natural resources (e.g. chromite ore), it is apparent that Turkey preferred to be a neutral trading partner rather than face an inevitable invasion and become a battlefield in the conflict between Germany and the Soviets.

Nor was Austria an Axis power - Austria ceased to exist as an independent nation when Germany annexed Austria in 1938. For the duration of the war, it was under the political control of Berlin.

The Ottoman Empire was allied with the Central Powers and Germany in WW1, perhaps that's where cratehorus is confused.

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And what I mean by "Jewish nationalism" and "Jewish ideology", I mean the ideology that lead to the foundation of Israel. Zionism. That's what it is, it is a Jewish ideology, based around nationalism.

I think you have it backwards here. I think it's the other way around - that their nationalism is a product of their cultural and religious identity and heritage, with a health dose of fear of a second holocaust. I recognize that may be an oversimplified view and I don't hold to it strongly.

[Whateverist]

In The News:

Barack Obama intervenes and the new Democrat Party platform which at first excluded references to God and that also excluded the statement which said Jerusalem is the capital of Israel has been reversed. Obama is said to have questioned why references to God and Jerusalem were removed from the party platform to begin with. The Democrat Party platform has reinstated its references to God and Jerusalem.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!!!!

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/matt-vespa/...ores-story

Hallelujah! I know where we live and with whom. But that doesn't mean I want to have a president who wears magic underpants. So I'm glad Obama is doing what is necessary to be electable. The alternative would truly be repugnant.

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It's not Jews, per se A Theist. The only sort of nationalism that Mehm gets behind is the ethnocentric type (particularly his own ethnicity-he doesn't seem to be so hot on others). Probably doesn't have any special sort of distaste for jews.

Yeah but A Theist should admire that. He is exactly the same way.

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However, I'd say it's actually weird to hear that zionism is actually a part of political platforms of parties in the US. I wonder why.

Because we strongly support the Jewish state and we stand with Israel. As far as we're concerned, Jerusalem is Israel's capital.

In exactly the same way that the United States is God's chosen land.

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Remember the bullshit scripted RNC vote? This is almost as bad.





What the fuck happened to democracy?

We need help with that. I'm hoping some first world countries will send observers to attest to our actual election being done legitimately. Obviously neither party is capable left to their own devices. The republicans are worse since they not only seek to maximize the number voting for their candidate but also to minimize the number voting against them by removing their right to vote.

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A third temple is required to be built on the temple mount in order to fulfull the rapture/end times fantasies longed for by fundamentalist Christians. The antichrist is supposed to announce himself as the savior in the rebuilt temple.

Politicians will of course say something along the lines of "Israel is important for the spread of democracy in the Middle East", but the reason I gave is precisely why Israel is so vital to the interests of the religious right.

You're right, if democracy had anything to do with it we'd try it at home.

[Phish]

[quote='Rhythm' pid='333124' dateline='1346959928']
Yeah, you know, I've gotta say, "giving them Germany" probably would have been a little sturdier.


4. The Soviet view of Jewish affinity towards the Soviets is by no means not shared in the west. State Department, even prior to McCarthy, was certainly in agreement.

Also lenin was half jewis and the trot was a jew to.