OK Christians. your chance. Convince me of God.

[Whateverist]

So I made a deal with anything out there you might consider a god: show me that you actually exist and I'll worship you.

Some might say you're being a little fast and easy with that worship. Shouldn't a god have to score high marks in morality and wisdom to get worship?

Even then it always seemed to me that worship was an odd sort of thing for anything to want. I don't want it from my dog. Wanting worship pretty much disqualifies any god from getting it from me.

Of course if there was some super powerful being that for whatever deranged reason wanted this worship or else he'd kick my ass for eternity I might have to put up a good show.

[TaraJo]

So I made a deal with anything out there you might consider a god: show me that you actually exist and I'll worship you.

Some might say you're being a little fast and easy with that worship. Shouldn't a god have to score high marks in morality and wisdom to get worship?

Well, at very least, proving that you exist is a starting place. So far, even that beginning has yet to be met, so I'm not really going to go past it until it has.

Of course if there was some super powerful being that for whatever deranged reason wanted this worship or else he'd kick my ass for eternity I might have to put up a good show.

Yes, but if said being were truly all powerful and all knowing, wouldn't it know you're only paying lip service? And wouldn't it also get pissed at your attempted deception?

[genkaus]

You do know in Christianity it is not the 'Christian' who is to convince you of anything right? Our sole responsiablity begins and ends with directing those who want to know God to the path He perscribes to find Him.

That can done several ways. By, living an example. By Answering questions. By worshiping together. Or a combination of all three. Forcing someone to believe through badgering or make someone accept God's truth through Logic and philosphy is not consistent with the charge we have been given. We all have been given this life in order to make a choice as to where we wish to spend our time in eternity. If you choose in your heart not to want to be with God then it would be wrong to force you to accept Him. In short it is God's responsiablity to provide you what you need to acheive belief and help you maintain it. It is your responsiablity to ask, seek and knock for these things if you do not already have them. God makes a promise. If you hold up your end He will open the gates of heaven and to you and hold up His end.

Excellently put. Very well stated.

Translating it into plain language: Ofcourse Christians can't provide logical or rational arguments for god's existence. You first have to convince yourself without any reason and then we'll tell you what to do. And even though you said "no heartwarming stories or blackmail" - here's some of that anyway.

[Puddleglum]

You do know in Christianity it is not the 'Christian' who is to convince you of anything right? Our sole responsiablity begins and ends with directing those who want to know God to the path He perscribes to find Him.

So the loons badgering me in the street are doing what exactly?

If you choose in your heart not to want to be with God then it would be wrong to force you to accept Him. In short it is God's responsiablity to provide you what you need to achieve belief and help you maintain it.

It would help if 'God' actually bothered to ask me. he hasn't so it really isn't my choice to reject him since he hasn't actually manifested. I can hardly reject something that doesn't exist. If it is his responsibility to provide me with what I need to believe then he has done a pretty poor job

If I were still a Christian I'd tell you that it doesn't work that way. You can't be convinced into believing something.

I am convinced into believing things all the time. I don't believe something , then I acquire proof that something is true then I believe it. No faith necessary

Otherwise if knowledge was given to you then you don't actually 'believe' but just simply 'know' god is real.

Knowledge is 'Justified true belief' (and yes I am well aware of Gettier), basic epistemology. Believing something without it being justified is an absurd strategy and quite impossible for anyone who thinks logically.

Trust me Puddleglum, their god doesn't give a shit about you, if he did he wouldn't be constantly reminding you to "seek for him." He'd get off his lazy ass and save you like any REAL father would do.

Well quite. As I have said elsewhere is a shepherd treated his own lambs like God treats his creation i'd give him the sack

Even then it always seemed to me that worship was an odd sort of thing for anything to want. I don't want it from my dog. Wanting worship pretty much disqualifies any god from getting it from me.


yes, I always had a problem with that. Why would you create something merely to have it worship you? You would have to have a serious lack of self esteem if you did that

Translating it into plain language: Ofcourse Christians can't provide logical or rational arguments for god's existence. You first have to convince yourself without any reason and then we'll tell you what to do. And even though you said "no heartwarming stories or blackmail" - here's some of that anyway.

Yes, spot on again. They have and won't provide me with any logical reason to believe in god, indeed they actually demonstrated to me the fallacy of their argument since they claim that it is God's duty to give me enough evidence.
He has failed to do so so ,ipso facto he either i) doesn't exist or ii) as well as being a homicidal maniac is a bumbling moron.

generally we lock up homicidal bumbling morons for the safety of themselves and others

[Phish]

Stop thinking,then you will find god and religion,believe me this is how many people do it.


When thinking is stopped,religion is introduced to the masses,people believe in religion because it gives them an simple answer to everything.

[Drich]

[quote='greneknight' pid='337914' dateline='1347976346']
[quote]Nobody chooses in his heart not to believe in God. [/quote]I did. I Choose not to believe in God till He showed Himself to me. I know I am not the only one who feel/felt this way.

[quote] It's just that God is playing such a wonderfully successful game of hide-and-seek that there is not the smallest trace of evidence of his existence. [/quote]So.. You Choose not to believe in God untill your prerequsits have been met? Sounds like a familiar story.

[quote] Anyone with some intelligence is bound to conclude that a being that claims to be all-loving, all-compassionate and interfering in human affairs and even answers prayers (can you believe that?) [/quote]Only if you can show book chapter and verse. Otherwise I would dismiss these claims as religious well wishing. I would contend that God does not claim these things. If you do all you have to provide is book chapter and verse.

[quote]should at least leave a blazing trail of evidence of his existence.[/quote]Why would He do that? Were we not put on this earth to make an eternal choice as to where we WANT to spend eternity? The WANT in that desision would be Gone if There was absolute proof. Everyone would make their desision on the basis of self preservation and Love/Want for God would have nothing to do with their desision. As it is now there is room for the self righteous to truthfully judge God according to his own hearts desire and their eternal fates truly reflect the condition of their heart and not the need to save themselves from eternal seperation/The second death.

[quote]But to have zilch evidence speaks loudly of his non-existence. Atheists and rational Christians are just being honest when we dispute the supernatural bits of religion.[/quote]To this I agree 100%. However to those who ask, seek and Knock as Christ commands in Luke 11 God promises to provide 'proof.' This is so that the 'believer' knows of the choice He had made is a legitmate one. This 'proof' is for the believer specifically and can be eaisly dismissed by others. Why? to perserve the intergerity of their desisions.

---

[quote='Stimbo' pid='337922' dateline='1347977270']
Whatever happened to 1 Peter 3:15, Ditch? Shouldn't you "be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you"?
[/quote]


Hedonismbot, didn't ask about the joy that is with in me. He asked to be convinced of God. To which I pointed to the only proof of God that is offered. By God through the Gift of the Holy Spirit.

(Which just so happens to be the source of said joy.)
;P

---

[quote='TaraJo' pid='337923' dateline='1347977324']
[quote]I made this deal with the almighty a long time ago.[/quote]
..and He signed off on said deal?

[quote] I figure, if god is all knowing, it knows what criteria would have to be met to prove its existence to me. If god is all powerful, meeting that criteria is well within its reach. [/quote]You have acknoweledged God is all knowing and All powerful, and yet you command Him to seek you to save Your soul? Respectfully: Doesn't this sound silly to you? Who are you to command god to Ask, Seek and Knock for yoour attention? Isn't the Death of His Son enough for you?
Let me put it this way. If you were invited to the White House for a presidential dinner with all the world leaders present, would you demand a change of venue and demand to the world leaders that they meet you on their terms? If you did how many world leaders do you think would meet you on your terms simply because you demanded it?

[quote] If god is as omnibenevolent as believers say and it tortures non-believers for eternity because of disbelief, logic follows that said god would be able to convince me of its existence and would be strongly motivated to do so.[/quote]No where in the bible does it say God is Omni benevolent. This is a false doctrine spun from the Greek word Agape'. It mean an limitless love. God's love maybe limitless, but it remains conditional. In that God's limitless love is reserved for those who Love and Choose Him. Not all are entitled to God's Love.

[quote] So far, I haven't seen any supernatural deity so much as lift a finger to reveal themselves to me.[/quote]Nor will you. For you like everyone else has been commanded to humble themselves to God. If you do then God WILL Lift you up.

[quote]So I made a deal with anything out there you might consider a god: show me that you actually exist and I'll worship you.[/quote]I think mohamad made a simlar 'deal.' For God is not the only being out there who will answer a plea.

[quote] I haven't had any responses; this silence leads me to believe that god either doesn't exist or wants me to believe it doesn't exist (and if my disbelief is part of god's plan, who am I to question gods plan?).[/quote]Your disbelief or rather you ablity to disbelieve is apart of God's plan.

[Polaris]

Convincing is very easy, but such methods are often looked down upon.

[greneknight]

Nobody chooses in his heart not to believe in God.

I did. I Choose not to believe in God till He showed Himself to me. I know I am not the only one who feel/felt this way.

No, you did not CHOOSE not to believe in God. Don't you see? For someone to choose not to believe in God, God must have been real to him in the first place. He must believe there is god for him to choose to oppose that belief. But for most sane people, we don't believe there is god in the first place. The bugger just is as non-existent as a pink unicorn. Can you understand this?

It's just that God is playing such a wonderfully successful game of hide-and-seek that there is not the smallest trace of evidence of his existence.

So.. You Choose not to believe in God untill your prerequsits have been met? Sounds like a familiar story.

Say I tell you now that there is a hopping giant kangaroo that sings "God Save the Queen" and he hops through the streets of Sydney, London and New York every Monday and the streets of Paris, Brussels and Rome every Friday. Can you choose to believe or choose not to believe that story? Chances are (I'm assuming you are sane) you just don't believe it. It's not a matter of choice. If you say it's a matter of choice to disbelieve, it should also be a matter of choice to believe it. Can you honestly say you can exercise the choice to believe in the story? I hope this will illustrate to you that belief (for us sane people) isn't a choice.

Anyone with some intelligence is bound to conclude that a being that claims to be all-loving, all-compassionate and interfering in human affairs and even answers prayers (can you believe that?)

Only if you can show book chapter and verse. Otherwise I would dismiss these claims as religious well wishing. I would contend that God does not claim these things. If you do all you have to provide is book chapter and verse.

Please don't be evasive this time. Are you saying God is:

1. Not all-loving
2. Not all compassionate
3. does not interfere in human affairs (are you a deist?)
4. does not answer prayer?

To say he does or is any of the above is just religious well wishing?

Please answer the question and don't just go on to something as you frequently do.

should at least leave a blazing trail of evidence of his existence.

Why would He do that? Were we not put on this earth to make an eternal choice as to where we WANT to spend eternity? The WANT in that desision would be Gone if There was absolute proof. Everyone would make their desision on the basis of self preservation and Love/Want for God would have nothing to do with their desision. As it is now there is room for the self righteous to truthfully judge God according to his own hearts desire and their eternal fates truly reflect the condition of their heart and not the need to save themselves from eternal seperation/The second death.

Are you speaking in tongues? I don't understand what you are saying. My precise sentence is this: "Anyone with some intelligence is bound to conclude that a being that claims to be all-loving, all-compassionate and interfering in human affairs and even answers prayers (can you believe that?) should at least leave a blazing trail of evidence of his existence." Your reply "Why would he do that?" is wrong. It's irrelevant. Whether God wants to do that or not is immaterial. I'm saying if he has such an impact on earth and if he interferes in human affairs at all, he would most certainly leave a blazing trail of evidence. You can't interfere in human affairs and still appear non-existent. The abominable snowman can appear non-existent because it doesn't claim to interfere in human affairs.

But to have zilch evidence speaks loudly of his non-existence. Atheists and rational Christians are just being honest when we dispute the supernatural bits of religion.

To this I agree 100%. However to those who ask, seek and Knock as Christ commands in Luke 11 God promises to provide 'proof.' This is so that the 'believer' knows of the choice He had made is a legitmate one. This 'proof' is for the believer specifically and can be eaisly dismissed by others. Why? to perserve the intergerity of their desisions.

Do you ask, seek and knock on the door of Allah or Brahmin, or Buddha? Do you seek the existence of fairies, leprechauns and pixies? What I can't understand is how you can't extricate yourself from your obviously highly brainwashed position just to see what the rational world is thinking. When you write this way, it's very obvious to those of us who aren't so terribly brainwashed that you are talking rot. But interestingly, you can't see it and you think you are persecuted for Christ and you smile to yourself, believing no doubt that the Lord is preparing a beautiful mansion in the sky for you. If you were Muslim, you'd believe Allah is selecting 77 virgins for you. Don't you see how laughably deluded supernatural-believing Christians and Muslims are?

[Drich]

So the loons badgering me in the street are doing what exactly?

Our only charge is to worship God with everything we are, and can be. These people are worship God the best way they know how. What they are doing is not wrong, for some it is what they need to transition from the life they live to where they want to be.

It would help if 'God' actually bothered to ask me.

If He asked you driectly then wouldn't it scew your answer? Just a little bit? Would the need for self preservation over ride your hearts true desires? If so then why ask you directly? As it is He 'asks' in a book that you can easily dismiss allowing you to maintain your objectivity.

Even then it always seemed to me that worship was an odd sort of thing for anything to want. I don't want it from my dog. Wanting worship pretty much disqualifies any god from getting it from me.

do you guys even think things through? If your dog did not 'worship you' then he would be free to poop, pee, hump, chew, eat, destroy/kill where or what ever he liked. We consider dogs with a strong will of their own as 'bad dogs.' Dogs who serve and yield their wills to their master's, are dogs we all like and want around our families. If a dog mauled you child you would have him put down. But why? he was just excersizing his own will apart from yours.

yes, I always had a problem with that. Why would you create something merely to have it worship you? You would have to have a serious lack of self esteem if you did that

Perfect example of the reason why God keeps Himself hidden to unbelievers. If you knew God to be real and Hell to be your current destination, could you make a comment like the one you just made? As it is you are free to speak your mind. Why? so you know on the day of your judgement that you indeed want to be where ever it is you have been sent to spend your eternity.

generally we lock up homicidal bumbling morons for the safety of themselves and others

Wow you are the second one to say something like this.

[Mystic]

I think most of you are looking proof for a Creator as opposed to God.

Proof of God has to be within. For example, if there were miracles being done constantly or he sent a billion books that could not be damaged or changed in all sorts of languages, delivering the same message, even then, you would not know God is real (based on that). It can be an advanced civilization trying to control us/guide us or even if we knew for sure it was the Creator, then he could be lying for all we know if we have no knowledge of the Creator.

The only way to know God is by reliance on something that is properly basic.

Even vision of glory of God, if you can't see that glory is eternal and points to an ultimately high origin, then you can't know that vision of glory is truly that of God or made up in your head.

At the end, the experience has to be properly basic.

Now to be honest, I don't know why Atheists don't all experience this. I don't.

But I also don't know why some people don't believe in (objective) morality.

I also don't understand why some people don't believe in free-will.

I feel we can experience that we are freely choosing, for example. We also have something in us telling us there is goodness and morality, even if we aren't quite sure of all it's details and applications.

Perhaps for some it's due to the fact humans begin to question things, and then many then doubt everything they know, but maybe let doubt take over too much.

Perhaps for some it's due to the fact they couldn't know how they know, so they decided it's impossible that they knew.

Perhaps for some it is because they are following authority and scientific community seems to emphasize on evidentialism.

Perhaps for some they emotionally invested a lot in a false concept of the Creator, and then when disbelieved in that, didn't try to look within of what beauty and glory they truly worship and believed in all along.

Perhaps for some is because such a belief is no intellectual but spiritual, and feel spirituality is for the weak and petty minded, due to how education is presenting the issue.

I don't know...perhaps none of these are reasons.