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September 22, 2012 at 1:36 pm (This post was last modified: September 22, 2012 at 1:39 pm by Mystic.)
There is a lot of verses that state God doesn’t guide the disbelieving people. Other verses state that God doesn’t guide the unjust people.
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا تَتَّخِذُوا الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَىٰ أَوْلِيَاءَ ۘ بَعْضُهُمْ أَوْلِيَاءُ بَعْضٍ ۚ وَمَنْ يَتَوَلَّهُمْ مِنْكُمْ فَإِنَّهُ مِنْهُمْ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الظَّالِمِينَ {51}
[Shakir 5:51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِنْ رَبِّكَ ۖ وَإِنْ لَمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ ۚ وَاللَّهُ يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْكَافِرِينَ {67}
[Shakir 5:67] O Messenger! deliver what bas been revealed to you from your Lord; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message, and Allah will protect you from the people; surely Allah will not guide the unbelieving people.
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ بِآيَاتِ اللَّهِ لَا يَهْدِيهِمُ اللَّهُ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ {104}
[Shakir 16:104] (As for) those who do not believe in Allah’s communications, surely Allah will not guide them, and they shall have a painful punishment.
Now these verses can be interpreted that God will not guide them while they disbelieve/don’t believe/are unjust, and would guide them if they leave that state, but even this is problematic because according to Islam leaving the state of disbelief or unjust state to just state would be “guidance”. It also stated no soul believes unless God wills it and that nothing happens without God’s will.
And some verses are promises that disbelievers will never believe, like the following:
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا سَوَاءٌ عَلَيْهِمْ أَأَنْذَرْتَهُمْ أَمْ لَمْ تُنْذِرْهُمْ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ {6}
[Shakir 2:6] Surely those who disbelieve, it being alike to them whether you warn them, or do not warn them, will not believe.
[Pickthal 2:6] As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.
[Yusufali 2:6] As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
خَتَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَىٰ قُلُوبِهِمْ وَعَلَىٰ سَمْعِهِمْ ۖ وَعَلَىٰ أَبْصَارِهِمْ غِشَاوَةٌ ۖ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ {7}
[Shakir 2:7] Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment for them.
[Pickthal 2:7] Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.
[Yusufali 2:7] Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur)
وَمَثَلُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا كَمَثَلِ الَّذِي يَنْعِقُ بِمَا لَا يَسْمَعُ إِلَّا دُعَاءً وَنِدَاءً ۚ صُمٌّ بُكْمٌ عُمْيٌ فَهُمْ لَا يَعْقِلُونَ {171}
[Shakir 2:171] And the parable of those who disbelieve is as the parable of one who calls out to that which hears no more than a call and a cry; deaf, dumb (and) blind, so they do not understand.
[Pickthal 2:171] The likeness of those who disbelieve (in relation to the messenger) is as the likeness of one who calleth unto that which heareth naught except a shout and cry. Deaf, dumb, blind, therefore they have no sense.
[Yusufali 2:171] The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat-herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom.
In fact, being deaf, dumb, and blind is for the purpose of not returning:
صُمٌّ بُكْمٌ عُمْيٌ فَهُمْ لَا يَرْجِعُونَ {18}
[Shakir 2:18] Deaf, dumb (and) blind, so they will not turn back.
[Pickthal 2:18] Deaf, dumb and blind; and they return not.
[Yusufali 2:18] Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).
Basically, they are hopeless, in the darkness, will never understand the book, deaf to hear the call.
مَنْ أَظْلَمُ مِمَّنْ ذُكِّرَ بِآيَاتِ رَبِّهِ فَأَعْرَضَ عَنْهَا وَنَسِيَ مَا قَدَّمَتْ يَدَاهُ ۚ إِنَّا جَعَلْنَا عَلَىٰ قُلُوبِهِمْ أَكِنَّةً أَنْ يَفْقَهُوهُ وَفِي آذَانِهِمْ وَقْرًا ۖ وَإِنْ تَدْعُهُمْ إِلَى الْهُدَىٰ فَلَنْ يَهْتَدُوا إِذًا أَبَدًا {57}
[Shakir 18:57] And who is more unjust than he who is reminded of the communications of his Lord, then he turns away from them and forgets what his two hands have sent before? Surely We have placed veils over their hearts lest they should understand it and a heaviness in their ears; and if you call them to the guidance, they will not ever follow the right course in that case.
[Pickthal 18:57] And who doth greater wrong than he who hath been reminded of the revelations of his Lord, yet turneth away from them and forgetteth what his hands send forward (to the Judgment)? Lo! on their hearts We have placed coverings so that they understand not, and in their ears a deafness. And though thou call them to the guidance, in that case they can never be led aright.
[Yusufali 18:57] And who doth more wrong than one who is reminded of the Signs of his Lord, but turns away from them, forgetting the (deeds) which his hands have sent forth? Verily We have set veils over their hearts lest they should understand this, and over their ears, deafness, if thou callest them to guidance, even then will they never accept guidance.
Then we have Suratal Kaffiroon, which states, that they will not worship what Mohammad Worships.
Now this can be said to refer to disbelievers in that area of that time, but even then, it’s problematic. This is because disbelievers came into the religion (see Suratal Nasr) per Quran after the victory, and there are verses that talk about reward of those whom spend money in the way of God after and fought, and those whom did before, and they would all be rewarded good. So you can see, they became believers, even if initially when they converted outwardly, they were not believers.
This verse summarizes it perfectly:
وَإِنْ تَدْعُوهُمْ إِلَى الْهُدَىٰ لَا يَتَّبِعُوكُمْ ۚ سَوَاءٌ عَلَيْكُمْ أَدَعَوْتُمُوهُمْ أَمْ أَنْتُمْ صَامِتُونَ {193}
[Shakir 7:193] And if you invite them to guidance, they will not follow you; it is the same to you whether you invite them or you are silent.
[Pickthal 7:193] And if ye call them to the Guidance, they follow you not. Whether ye call them or are silent is all one for you.
[Yusufali 7:193] If ye call them to guidance, they will not obey: For you it is the same whether ye call them or ye hold your peace!
But they ended up following.
And if we look at some of the verses, they are describing people whom disbelieve in general and the verses are general about whomever rejects God’s guidance. Therefore you have this additional problem.
(September 22, 2012 at 2:01 pm)Insanity x Wrote: I read it as if your a disbeliever your already fucked. lol
Exactly, but Quran shows disbelievers can become believers and not only can, but that most in Arabia did.
Therefore you have a contradiction.
No Muslim will believe it's impossible for disbeliever to be guided towards Islam. Faith is something to be said that doesn't happen unless God wills it.
(September 22, 2012 at 2:09 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Exactly, but Quran shows disbelievers can become believers and not only can, but that most in Arabia did.
Therefore you have a contradiction.
No Muslim will believe it's impossible for disbeliever to be guided towards Islam. Faith is something to be said that doesn't happen unless God wills it.
This looks like a slip up from the Prophet.
Could mean disbelievers as atheists only. So anyone who is from another religion can convert but not atheists.
(September 22, 2012 at 2:09 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: This looks like a slip up from the Prophet.
Ixnay on the criticizing the prophetay.
I may be getting guidance from God all the time or not at all. I just have no way of knowing. One thing is for sure though: I never expect or wait for any. In this life we are all better off to make our own choices and get what needs doing done ourselves. I suspect you would agree? Probably the only difference is you assume you are getting some and are grateful while I assume otherwise.
September 22, 2012 at 2:27 pm (This post was last modified: September 22, 2012 at 2:35 pm by Mystic.)
(September 22, 2012 at 2:20 pm)Insanity x Wrote:
(September 22, 2012 at 2:09 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Exactly, but Quran shows disbelievers can become believers and not only can, but that most in Arabia did.
Therefore you have a contradiction.
No Muslim will believe it's impossible for disbeliever to be guided towards Islam. Faith is something to be said that doesn't happen unless God wills it.
This looks like a slip up from the Prophet.
Could mean disbelievers as atheists only. So anyone who is from another religion can convert but not atheists.
Disbelievers in context of Quran, means those whom disbelieve in God's Guidance.
The disbelievers of that Area almost all believed in God, they just associated with him Sons and daughters (Jinn/Angels) or worshiped idols a long with God.
One of the three verses I posted also stated those "whom believe not in God's Ayat"...
And other verses state those "whom deny God's Ayat"....
So even if disbelievers in Quran meant Atheists, then you would have those verses.
But it would not make sense in context of Quran, since almost all of Arabia believed in God and they were being addressed as disbelievers.
Also believers are contrasted to disbelievers, while Quran states those whom desire other then the religion of Islam, will be losers in the next. As well as other verses say all but believers are reduced to the lowest of the low.
Aside from that, is verses stating disbelievers can become believers. For example, the famous verse that if disbelievers stop their opposition and believe, all their past sins will be forgiven.
That is why people say converts come with a fresh sheet.
(September 22, 2012 at 2:25 pm)whateverist Wrote:
(September 22, 2012 at 2:09 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: This looks like a slip up from the Prophet.
Ixnay on the criticizing the prophetay.
I may be getting guidance from God all the time or not at all. I just have no way of knowing. One thing is for sure though: I never expect or wait for any. In this life we are all better off to make our own choices and get what needs doing done ourselves. I suspect you would agree?
Yeah I agree.
Quote:Probably the only difference is you assume you are getting some and are grateful while I assume otherwise.
I don't think God interferes, I feel like morality is linked to him, but that he made up a system....
If I say God guided me to the truth, I would have to say, others who believe in false religions or what not, God is treating me special over them.
And I don't believe that. I believe there is a system, and I believe there is inner sword of God within the soul, but it's not that God interferes, it's that the system he constantly creates, can guide people, and that includes the system of the mind and soul.
Quote:Exactly, but Quran shows disbelievers can become believers and not only can, but that most in Arabia did.
It's amazing what people will agree to if you swing a sword at their head.
I know. Threaten me with eternal torment of any grotesque form you can think of and I'll laugh in your face. But hold a sword over my living body and I'll give you all the hosannas and praise-be-to-Allah's you require.
September 22, 2012 at 3:01 pm (This post was last modified: September 22, 2012 at 3:02 pm by Mystic.)
(September 22, 2012 at 2:51 pm)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:Exactly, but Quran shows disbelievers can become believers and not only can, but that most in Arabia did.
It's amazing what people will agree to if you swing a sword at their head.
Yeah I know, this is why the "it's the best generation of people and they are all trustworthy" doctrine of Sunnis never flew with me. Most "Sahabas" converted to Islam due to force, or felt like once Quraysh believed, they should follow Quraysh;s lead and not fight...basically due to the fact Quran stated because they kept up on breaking treaties, to fight them until they accept Islam or die.
If Imam Ali was appointed by the Prophet, it's no surprise if most people reject him, as they were very much opposed to Islam from the beginning till the victory.
(September 22, 2012 at 1:36 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: There is a lot of verses that state God doesn’t guide the disbelieving people. Other verses state that God doesn’t guide the unjust people
That's not a contradiction, is it?
And yeah, the verse "Allah guides whom He wills" is one of the things that seems to confuse a lot of people (even Muslims). It gives an impression as if man doesn't have any free will in regards to his faith and that God is the only who can guide him toward the truth. However, I don't think that's true, because my understanding of God's guidance is that it is (1) determined by His attributes, not by whim and (2) it is also dependent on the internal quality of the heart. This means that a good heart will be drawn to further goodness, whereas a bad heart may decide to repent or it may harden into a deeper state of rebellion.
An analogy of the above would be the the rays of the sun, shining down and spreading light and warmth on the earth. Under the same benevolence, a lump of wax will soften and melt, but, on the other hand, a lump of clay will harden more and more as time goes on. Similarly, one's disbelief is inclined to become stronger and deeper as he remains in that state and, on the other hand, one's belief is inclined to become stronger and deeper as he remains in that state. This, I think, implies that God's guidance is actually dependent on our own internal qualities.
I don't believe that we have complete free will, but I believe that we must have at least some degree of free will in order for personal accountability and love of God to have any real meaning in our lives whatsoever. Islam teaches that man is a being of free will that continuously chooses either the way of his fitrah (spiritual nature) or the way of his tabi’ah (animal nature), and so it is with this free will, or rather, a "limited" type of free will, that man determines his life in the Hereafter. See the article below on the topic of free will and determinism:
