Posts: 3117
Threads: 16
Joined: September 17, 2012
Reputation:
35
RE: Free Will: Fact or Fiction
September 26, 2012 at 5:32 pm
(This post was last modified: September 26, 2012 at 5:35 pm by Darkstar.)
(September 26, 2012 at 4:25 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: (September 26, 2012 at 2:33 pm)Tino Wrote: I consider that to be an extraordinary claim and it needs extraordinary evidence As a theist I hear this line all the time, David Hume right?
I don't think that's a good way to live life.
Consider this:
A man living in the tropics would never believe travelers eyewitness accounts that water can exist in a solid state. That would go against all the laws of nature that this man would know.
On Humes view, even though there are reliable accounts of water existing as a solid, we should not believe it.
They could bring him ice (though it would melt). But the thing is that this man would not have any way to know what ice is. As humans, it is entirely possible (in fact very likely) that there are major discoveries waiting to happen outside of what we can observe. However, why is it that all of god's theatrics died down before there was a reliable way to record them? The accuracy of the bible is dubious, not even counting the supernatural parts. The fact that it is said to be infalliable and has many contradictions is a considerable strike against it. An eyewitness could be wrong, but with ice experiments could be done to find proof. Likewise, if they didn't have an understanding of the phases (plasma, gas, liquid, solid), then how would they know the ice was water? Are we to take at face value claims from a 2000+ year old book written largely on hearsay claiming extraordinary things that, from all of the scientific knowledge we have, is deemed to be impossible?
Well, since extraordinary eyewitness claims don't require extraordinary evidence, we should believe the many eyewitnesses that have seen Elvis in recent years. Maybe we should get his autograph to sell on e-bay... Oh, and we'll make a killing when we finally catch bigfoot.
(September 26, 2012 at 12:04 pm)Darkstar Wrote: (September 26, 2012 at 12:02 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: If there really is a God, he can do whatever He wants.
Abandon all hope!  
![[Image: busatheist.jpg]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.pinknews.co.uk%2Fimages%2Fbusatheist.jpg)
Sorry, false alarm. We're going to be fine!
John Adams Wrote:The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
Posts: 23918
Threads: 300
Joined: June 25, 2011
Reputation:
151
RE: Free Will: Fact or Fiction
September 26, 2012 at 8:49 pm
(September 26, 2012 at 11:59 am)Whatkins Wrote: (September 25, 2012 at 9:45 pm)Tino Wrote: The lack of evidence to the contrary is what convinces me.
What spectacular non-logic.
What's wrong with making common sense the default position in the absence of evidence one way or the other? It isn't conclusive of course but then again, conclusive reasons are elusive where free will/determinism is concerned.
Posts: 4196
Threads: 60
Joined: September 8, 2011
Reputation:
30
RE: Free Will: Fact or Fiction
September 26, 2012 at 8:56 pm
Let's see ... A thought requires a chemical reaction first ...
If a thought is not a process of physiology, then what 'magic' produces it?
Free-will ... The atheist's god.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
Posts: 447
Threads: 32
Joined: September 13, 2012
Reputation:
6
RE: Free Will: Fact or Fiction
September 26, 2012 at 9:04 pm
(This post was last modified: September 26, 2012 at 9:29 pm by Tino.)
(September 26, 2012 at 3:26 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: Question: How would a world populated with people who have free will be distinguishable from one where they only have the illusion of it?
To take a stab at your question I'd need to know what it is that is actually controlling our will in the scenario that free will is an illusion.
(September 26, 2012 at 4:04 pm)Ben Davis Wrote: Experiments are unnecessary. All you need to do is study Tourette Syndrome.
TS is a disorder. To claim that we have free will doesn't require that there is nothing that can interfere with our ability to take action.
(September 26, 2012 at 4:25 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: A man living in the tropics would never believe travelers eyewitness accounts that water can exist in a solid state. That would go against all the laws of nature that this man would know.
On Humes view, even though there are reliable accounts of water existing as a solid, we should not believe it.
I think that's the wrong conclusion. The right one is that the man in the tropics would be justified in asking to see the evidence, and upon being shown an ice cube and watching it melt, would consider it to be extraordinary evidence.
(September 26, 2012 at 8:56 pm)IATIA Wrote: Let's see ... A thought requires a chemical reaction first ...
If a thought is not a process of physiology, then what 'magic' produces it?
I don't know if it is more accurate to say that thinking causes a chemical reaction or as you've said, requires a chemical reaction. But let me use your statement. That thinking requires a chemical reaction says nothing about deciding on the action to take, which is the essence of free will.
![[Image: generic_sig.jpg]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.blogtite.com%2Fgeneric_sig.jpg)
Posts: 3188
Threads: 8
Joined: December 9, 2011
Reputation:
31
RE: Free Will: Fact or Fiction
September 26, 2012 at 11:10 pm
(September 26, 2012 at 4:04 pm)Ben Davis Wrote: Sometimes you're able to make your own choices, sometimes your neurology & psychology make them for you and all you can do is act.
Why do you assume there is a difference? Are you something other than your neurology/psychology?
Posts: 4196
Threads: 60
Joined: September 8, 2011
Reputation:
30
RE: Free Will: Fact or Fiction
September 26, 2012 at 11:35 pm
(September 26, 2012 at 9:04 pm)Tino Wrote: I don't know if it is more accurate to say that thinking causes a chemical reaction or as you've said, requires a chemical reaction. But let me use your statement. That thinking requires a chemical reaction says nothing about deciding on the action to take, which is the essence of free will.
Then. from whence does your thought come if not from physiological chemical processes?
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
Posts: 3117
Threads: 16
Joined: September 17, 2012
Reputation:
35
RE: Free Will: Fact or Fiction
September 26, 2012 at 11:58 pm
(September 26, 2012 at 11:35 pm)IATIA Wrote: Then. from whence does your thought come if not from physiological chemical processes?
From physiological chemical processes which you have some, but not total influence over. (My thoughts anyways...)
John Adams Wrote:The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
Posts: 4196
Threads: 60
Joined: September 8, 2011
Reputation:
30
RE: Free Will: Fact or Fiction
September 27, 2012 at 12:02 am
(September 26, 2012 at 11:58 pm)Darkstar Wrote: (September 26, 2012 at 11:35 pm)IATIA Wrote: Then. from whence does your thought come if not from physiological chemical processes?
From physiological chemical processes which you have some, but not total influence over. (My thoughts anyways...)
How?
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
Posts: 3117
Threads: 16
Joined: September 17, 2012
Reputation:
35
RE: Free Will: Fact or Fiction
September 27, 2012 at 12:06 am
(This post was last modified: September 27, 2012 at 12:07 am by Darkstar.)
(September 27, 2012 at 12:02 am)IATIA Wrote: (September 26, 2012 at 11:58 pm)Darkstar Wrote: From physiological chemical processes which you have some, but not total influence over. (My thoughts anyways...)
How?
Well, I honestlty don't know, and because I am not majoring in neurology I don't think I can produce a good answer later, either. I admit I have no proof, I could be wrong, it's just what I think. I don't claim to know this for a fact, and never did.
John Adams Wrote:The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
Posts: 447
Threads: 32
Joined: September 13, 2012
Reputation:
6
RE: Free Will: Fact or Fiction
September 27, 2012 at 5:50 am
(September 26, 2012 at 11:35 pm)IATIA Wrote: (September 26, 2012 at 9:04 pm)Tino Wrote: I don't know if it is more accurate to say that thinking causes a chemical reaction or as you've said, requires a chemical reaction. But let me use your statement. That thinking requires a chemical reaction says nothing about deciding on the action to take, which is the essence of free will.
Then. from whence does your thought come if not from physiological chemical processes?
Please re-read my prior answer. I used your supposition that thinking requires a chemical reaction.
|
