(September 25, 2012 at 9:45 pm)Tino Wrote: The lack of evidence to the contrary is what convinces me.

What spectacular non-logic.

(September 25, 2012 at 8:28 pm)Darkstar Wrote: We can go to hell for doing things we could not control?hock:

Roman 9:19-23
19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-

If there really is a God, he can do whatever He wants.

Daniel 4:34,35
34 At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever, for his dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom endures from generation to generation;
35 all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, "What have you done?"

(September 26, 2012 at 12:02 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: If there really is a God, he can do whatever He wants.

Abandon all hope!

(September 26, 2012 at 6:24 am)genkaus Wrote:

(September 25, 2012 at 5:58 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: On top of all that, you at all times choose what you most desire, our decisions are chained/limited by what our greatest desire is (you can have conflicting ones).....but we can't even choose our desires.

Wrong. Given that we can change our desires.

Can you elaborate on this comment?

(September 25, 2012 at 9:45 pm)Tino Wrote:

(September 25, 2012 at 7:15 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: We appear to have free will do we? How so?

The lack of evidence to the contrary is what convinces me.

I'm sorry, did you just suggest it can't be proven it doesn't exist and so thats a good enough reason to believe it does?

(September 26, 2012 at 12:33 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote:

(September 25, 2012 at 9:45 pm)Tino Wrote: The lack of evidence to the contrary is what convinces me.

I'm sorry, did you just suggest it can't be proven it doesn't exist and so thats a good enough reason to believe it does?

I think he;s saying that he doesn't consider the evidence against it to be strong enough.

I think that we have free will, but are still affected by biology and our past experiences. We aren't slaves to our impulses, but they do give us suggestions. There are certain things we can't control at all, like reflexes, but on a macroscopic level, I think that we have enough control to call it free will.

(September 26, 2012 at 12:37 pm)Darkstar Wrote:

(September 26, 2012 at 12:33 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: I'm sorry, did you just suggest it can't be proven it doesn't exist and so thats a good enough reason to believe it does?

I think he;s saying that he doesn't consider the evidence against it to be strong enough.

I think that we have free will, but are still affected by biology and our past experiences. We aren't slaves to our impulses, but they do give us suggestions. There are certain things we can't control at all, like reflexes, but on a macroscopic level, I think that we have enough control to call it free will.

What I mean is that we appear to have free will. People around me behave as if they have free will. The world appears to be populated by people with free will. If I were to imagine what a world would look like if populated by people with free will, it would look like ours. So my observation is that we do indeed have free will. Now if you want to create a compelling argument that we don't have free will, I consider that to be an extraordinary claim and it needs extraordinary evidence - not just button-pressing studies measuring neural response times that can be interpreted to have nothing to do with free will. So I'm asking for an experiment that really gets to the heart of it. I believe I'm free to follow my will. If I'm not, someone ought to be able to place me or someone else in an experiment that shows I can't act on my will as freely as I believe.

(September 26, 2012 at 2:33 pm)Tino Wrote: What I mean is that we appear to have free will. People around me behave as if they have free will. The world appears to be populated by people with free will. If I were to imagine what a world would look like if populated by people with free will, it would look like ours.

Question: How would a world populated with people who have free will be distinguishable from one where they only have the illusion of it?

I'm personally undecided as to whether truly have free will (for some definition of same), though I would agree that it appears to be so, to a degree.

(September 26, 2012 at 2:33 pm)Tino Wrote: So I'm asking for an experiment that really gets to the heart of it. I believe I'm free to follow my will. If I'm not, someone ought to be able to place me or someone else in an experiment that shows I can't act on my will as freely as I believe.

Experiments are unnecessary. All you need to do is study Tourette Syndrome.

As I said in my previous post, it's not as simple as free-will vs determinism. Sometimes you're able to make your own choices, sometimes your neurology & psychology make them for you and all you can do is act. When & how these options maifest appears to be individualistic: some can control their actions when others can't. Rather than seeing free-will & determinism as dichotomous, I see them as complicitous.

(September 26, 2012 at 2:33 pm)Tino Wrote: I consider that to be an extraordinary claim and it needs extraordinary evidence

As a theist I hear this line all the time, David Hume right?

I don't think that's a good way to live life.

Consider this:

A man living in the tropics would never believe travelers eyewitness accounts that water can exist in a solid state. That would go against all the laws of nature that this man would know.

On Humes view, even though there are reliable accounts of water existing as a solid, we should not believe it.