God does not follow the first principle of morality. Why not?

[Drich]

Morality has indeed changed over the years, all the more reason to reject archaic biblical values. God doesn't follow anyone's morality. In his eyes, his will is 'morality', regardless of if it is actually moral. The authority upon which this answer is based is our own evolutionarily inbuilt notion of morality.

God's 'morality' is known as Righteousness and you are right it does not change. That is because it is an absolute standard in which none of us can (nor is expected) to live up to.

Funny thing, god didn't feel any obligation to kill them.

Maybe because God knew on their own they would not have destroyed the world as the other 'races' did.

I think it's funny when people ask "well what if he grew up to be another Hitler" ignoring the fact that Hitler grew up.

..And I think it is funny you have ignored the orginal question to posit your own 'what if.'

Do you honestly expect me to believe that every baby that dies because of god would be worse than Hitler?

Yes.

What race?

The races you pointed out that God had order the complete destruction of in the Old testament.

...god is not basically good either.

By what standard? Yours? who are you to judge God? Your answer:_________________ my response:

[Darkstar]

God's 'morality' is known as Righteousness and you are right it does not change. That is because it is an absolute standard in which none of us can (nor is expected) to live up to.

No wonder he keeps changing the rules on us; he doesn't care if we follow them!

Funny thing, god didn't feel any obligation to kill them.

Maybe because God knew on their own they would not have destroyed the world as the other 'races' did.

Sure are a lot of 'races' capable of total global annhialation.

I think it's funny when people ask "well what if he grew up to be another Hitler" ignoring the fact that Hitler grew up.

..And I think it is funny you have ignored the orginal question to posit your own 'what if.'

It isn't a 'what if', it's a why. If god kills people who will grow up to do terrible evil, then why did Hitler grow up, and survive numerous assasination attempts, some on dumb luck? I guess god ws protecting him, then? Assasination attempts on Adolf Hitler

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Do you honestly expect me to believe that every baby that dies because of god would be worse than Hitler?

Yes.

What race?

The races you pointed out that God had order the complete destruction of in the Old testament.

God ordered the complete destruction of a lot of people in the old testament, I wasn't referring to one in particular.

...god is not basically good either.

By what standard? Yours? who are you to judge God? Your answer:God is not perfect just because he says he is and is very powerful. I won't cave out of fear to an imaginary being.my response:

Fixed.

[Cinjin]

The great majority of all gods are immoral by nearly ANYONE's standards.

This is nothing new. The reason why the bible itself tells us that god is an angry god, a jealous god, a loving god and a god to be feared is because those are all human characteristics. Mankind doesn't have the ability to fashion a god that doesn't have these characteristics. Mankind is angry, loving, noble, sadistic, selfish, kind, sexual, vindictive, etc etc ... ergo, all these traits come out in their gods.

I don't know why this is such a hard concept for the christards to grasp. OF COURSE god is immoral, the men who invented him are immoral.

Dur.

[Darkstar]

The great majority of all gods are immoral by nearly ANYONE's standards.

Yeah. Think about all of the terrible stuff the ancient Greek gods did (incest, killing populations for improper worship, etc.). Yahweh does the same stuff, it's just that christians go when people bring it up. Why else would he be called the 'jealous god'?

[Ryantology]

God's 'morality' is known as Righteousness and you are right it does not change. That is because it is an absolute standard in which none of us can (nor is expected) to live up to.

Well, so far it doesn't seem like he lives up to my non-absolute standard. God is on his own (alleged) record as having committed terrible crimes against humanity. I don't know how that isn't a huge problem.

What I wonder is, where does God's righteousness come from? Himself? Does that mean his will is completely arbitrary? If so, what is our motivation to submit ourselves to it? Is it because he is more powerful than we are?

Because, that sounds a lot like that survival of the fittest thing Christians seem to think dominates secular morality. You tell yourself God is good because you're too terrified of the monster to say otherwise. I know that spinning God as ultimate good and loving everybody makes it easier to sell the bullshit, but I'd honestly have more respect for his followers if they were honest and admitted that God is neither good, nor perfect, and that their 'personal' relationship is one of existential terror.

[Drich]

Well, so far it doesn't seem like he lives up to my non-absolute standard.

Exactly! Why? Because you/the soceity you live in has created a standard in which you can view yourself as a 'good' person. Now you have taken that sub standard, standard and judged God with your/our soceitial short commings as if this was any real type of measure. Of course God falls short. If He did not in your own standard then that would mean you would. why look at your failures and faults when you can blame a seeming silent God?

God is on his own (alleged) record as having committed terrible crimes against humanity. I don't know how that isn't a huge problem.

Because 'Humanity' belongs to God. The lives humans live belong to God. As Creator God has rights that you do not. Giving and taking life is one of them.

What I wonder is, where does God's righteousness come from? Himself?

Yes.

Does that mean his will is completely arbitrary?

As in God's will is righteousness.. Yes.

If so, what is our motivation to submit ourselves to it?

Why do you need one? God's Will is only for those who wish to spend eternity with Him. Those who do not, do not need any motivation. God's righteousness is an 'arbitray' line in the sand. Those who wish to spend eternity with God must seek attonement for being outside of God's Righteousness, and those who do not simply stay the course.

Is it because he is more powerful than we are?

Yuup!
God's creation. God's rules, and there is nothing you can do about it..

Because, that sounds a lot like that survival of the fittest thing Christians seem to think dominates secular morality.

Ahhh, no. Gay marriage, Abortion, the promotion of prematerial sex, the soceital push to allow us to think we are 'all basically good people.' these are not "Christian values."

You tell yourself God is good because you're too terrified of the monster to say otherwise.

God is Good for no other reason than He defines what 'Good' is.

I know that spinning God as ultimate good and loving everybody makes it easier to sell the bullshit, but I'd honestly have more respect for his followers if they were honest and admitted that God is neither good, nor perfect, and that their 'personal' relationship is one of existential terror.

Fortunately we do not need the respect of those who wish to compermise our faith in order to award us with 'peer approval.'

[Darkstar]

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Well, so far it doesn't seem like he lives up to my non-absolute standard.

Exactly! Why? Because you/the soceity you live in has created a standard in which you can view yourself as a 'good' person. Now you have taken that sub standard, standard and judged God with your/our soceitial short commings as if this was any real type of measure. Of course God falls short. If He did not in your own standard then that would mean you would. why look at your failures and faults when you can blame a seeming silent God?

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This is a dead point if you keep saying "god is so awesome that we must be the evil ones" without actually considering things objectively. He is called the jealous god. Is jealousy good?

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God is on his own (alleged) record as having committed terrible crimes against humanity. I don't know how that isn't a huge problem.

Because 'Humanity' belongs to God. The lives humans live belong to God. As Creator God has rights that you do not. Giving and taking life is one of them.

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I strongly deny this. If we threw down the seeds of life on some far off world and claimed ownsership of the populace once they reached sentiency, it would be unjust. God did not create me, my mother did.

What I wonder is, where does God's righteousness come from? Himself?

Yes.

God is self-righteous, but he gets a pass for everything...

Does that mean his will is completely arbitrary?

As in God's will is righteousness.. Yes.

God's arbitrary will is inherently righteous because he says so...I don't buy it.

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If so, what is our motivation to submit ourselves to it?

Why do you need one? God's Will is only for those who wish to spend eternity with Him. Those who do not, do not need any motivation. God's righteousness is an 'arbitray' line in the sand. Those who wish to spend eternity with God must seek attonement for being outside of God's Righteousness, and those who do not simply stay the course.

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So, it finally comes out. God isn't just, he is 'righteous'. 'Righteous' simply means god's will. If you submit to god's will, regardless of its morality, you go to heaven. If you stand up for what is right and refuse, you burn forever. Of course, it could be one big conspiracy with god testing us to see who stands up for what is right and who doesn't...can't prove otherwise (it wouldn't be in the bible if it were true...).

Is it because he is more powerful than we are?

Yuup!
God's creation. God's rules, and there is nothing you can do about it..

Further evidence god is just a whiny brat who does whatever he feels like and doesn't care if it's wrong.

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Because, that sounds a lot like that survival of the fittest thing Christians seem to think dominates secular morality.

Ahhh, no. Gay marriage, Abortion, the promotion of prematerial sex, the soceital push to allow us to think we are 'all basically good people.' these are not "Christian values."

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If we were all basically good people, then why are there laws? Teaching us we're all basically bad people not only would have negative emotional effects, but it might cause people to think they can do bad things without being judged.

You tell yourself God is good because you're too terrified of the monster to say otherwise.

God is Good for no other reason than He defines what 'Good' is.

You just keep proving my points.

Reminds me of this video:

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skip to :50 for first answer, skip to 1:49 for the second

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I know that spinning God as ultimate good and loving everybody makes it easier to sell the bullshit, but I'd honestly have more respect for his followers if they were honest and admitted that God is neither good, nor perfect, and that their 'personal' relationship is one of existential terror.

Fortunately we do not need the respect of those who wish to compermise our faith in order to award us with 'peer approval.'

Fortunately we [atheists] do not need the respect of those who wish to compromise our faith reason in order to award us with 'peer approval.'

[Ryantology]

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Exactly! Why? Because you/the soceity you live in has created a standard in which you can view yourself as a 'good' person. Now you have taken that sub standard, standard and judged God with your/our soceitial short commings as if this was any real type of measure. Of course God falls short. If He did not in your own standard then that would mean you would. why look at your failures and faults when you can blame a seeming silent God?

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I wouldn't know because I do not actually blame God.

A being of perfect good should, by that very definition, never appear to be of lesser morality when his behavior is compared to inferior morals. A perfect being of good cannot have flaws, cannot in any way behave in a way any imagination or opinion could consider 'evil'.

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Because 'Humanity' belongs to God. The lives humans live belong to God. As Creator God has rights that you do not. Giving and taking life is one of them.

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God is notoriously inconsistent in how he views the act of lethal violence among his pet humans.

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If so, what is our motivation to submit ourselves to it?

Why do you need one?[/quote]

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According to you, God gave me free will specifically so I would choose either to submit or not to submit. What motivates me to choose one or the other?

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God's Will is only for those who wish to spend eternity with Him.

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And yet you oppose gay marriage and abortion and attempt to force God's Will on people who clearly do not wish to spend eternity with him, so obviously you do not adhere to your own beliefs in practice.

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Those who do not, do not need any motivation. God's righteousness is an 'arbitray' line in the sand. Those who wish to spend eternity with God must seek attonement for being outside of God's Righteousness, and those who do not simply stay the course.

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I'm supposed to apologize to God because he made me inferior to himself?

That's goofy.

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Ahhh, no. Gay marriage, Abortion, the promotion of prematerial sex, the soceital push to allow us to think we are 'all basically good people.' these are not "Christian values."

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God's Will is only for those who wish to spend eternity with Him.

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God is Good for no other reason than He defines what 'Good' is.

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This is the kernel of my point.

If God defines what 'Good' is, then any action I take which mirrors an act of God (in terms of intent; obviously not in magnitude of the deed) must also be Good.

So, if I murder blasphemers, this is good. God has done this. It cannot be evil.

If I make a woman into a rape-slave, this is good. God has commanded men to do this. It cannot be evil.

If I massacre firstborn children because the guy who ruled over them pissed me off, this is good. God has done this. It cannot be evil.

If I inflict psychological torture on a man in order to get him to slaughter his son, whether or not he goes through with it in the end, this is good. God has done this. It cannot be evil.

I could go all day.

[IATIA]

God's 'morality' is known as Righteousness and you are right it does not change. That is because it is an absolute standard in which none of us can (nor is expected) to live up to.

Your god does not abide by even one of the ten commandments nor the three given by jesus.

By what standard? Yours? who are you to judge God?

Certainly a more "righteous" person than your god. For starters, I do not harm children, let alone, kill babies.

[Akincana Krishna dasa]

Why just blame God for hurting kids? Everyone in the whole world has to die. God ultimately kills everyone.

God has arranged for all kinds of horror, disease and death. All kinds of war and natural disaster. This world is full of suffering. Anyone who believes in God, and accepts Him as the source of all that is, also must accept that He is the cause of all the most horrible suffering in the universe.