Posts: 115
Threads: 17
Joined: September 29, 2012
Reputation:
3
Moral dilemmas
October 6, 2012 at 6:14 am
(This post was last modified: October 6, 2012 at 6:16 am by Doubting_Thomas.)
Post dilemmas and your view on the most moral action. When replying, please make it clear which dilemma your comment relates to. I hope this thread can help people explore relative vs absolute and secular vs religious morals.
Dilemma 1. A Father's Agonizing Choice
You are an inmate in a concentration camp. A sadistic guard is about to hang your son who tried to escape and wants you to pull the chair from underneath him. He says that if you don't he will not only kill your son but some other innocent inmate as well. You don't have any doubt that he means what he says. What should you do?
Re concentration camp. Pull the chair out. :-(
blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” – John 20:26-29
Posts: 19645
Threads: 177
Joined: July 31, 2012
Reputation:
92
RE: Moral dilemmas
October 6, 2012 at 6:34 am
(October 6, 2012 at 6:14 am)Doubting_Thomas Wrote: Dilemma 1. A Father's Agonizing Choice
You are an inmate in a concentration camp. A sadistic guard is about to hang your son who tried to escape and wants you to pull the chair from underneath him. He says that if you don't he will not only kill your son but some other innocent inmate as well. You don't have any doubt that he means what he says. What should you do?
Re concentration camp. Pull the chair out. :-(
solution: yell out "FREEDOMM" and attack the guards. What kind of lifeis one on a concentration camp?
Posts: 1272
Threads: 3
Joined: July 29, 2012
Reputation:
7
RE: Moral dilemmas
October 6, 2012 at 7:22 am
Dont cooperate with murderers/liars.
Posts: 115
Threads: 17
Joined: September 29, 2012
Reputation:
3
RE: Moral dilemmas
October 6, 2012 at 8:00 am
So, the moral crime of cooperating outweighs the the life of the second innocent person?
I'm not saying it's nice or easy to do, but morally are you not obligated to try to save the second person?
blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” – John 20:26-29
Posts: 6300
Threads: 78
Joined: May 14, 2011
Reputation:
82
RE: Moral dilemmas
October 6, 2012 at 9:51 am
(October 6, 2012 at 8:00 am)Doubting_Thomas Wrote: I'm not saying it's nice or easy to do, but morally are you not obligated to try to save the second person?
Actually, no, you aren't. Personally I'm of the opinion that I would strive to save the other person if there was nothing else to be done, but I can understand in this kind of situation if one isn't altruistic at all. Selfishness might be ugly most of the time, but sometimes it serves us well.
When I was young, there was a god with infinite power protecting me. Is there anyone else who felt that way? And was sure about it? but the first time I fell in love, I was thrown down - or maybe I broke free - and I bade farewell to God and became human. Now I don't have God's protection, and I walk on the ground without wings, but I don't regret this hardship. I want to live as a person. -Arina Tanemura
Posts: 115
Threads: 17
Joined: September 29, 2012
Reputation:
3
RE: Moral dilemmas
October 7, 2012 at 2:51 am
(This post was last modified: October 7, 2012 at 2:55 am by Doubting_Thomas.)
You agree that pushing the chair is the most moral act, but object to the idea of moral obligations? Fair enough.
2. Writing the history. This interests me because I'm not sure what I would do, even though I can rationalize the choices. I thought this up after noticing the inconsistencies in certain "official history" compared to what anyone can now read up on the Internet.
You are from a small country with its own language. There are no notable history books written about this country. You have been commissioned to write the official history book which you know will be used in all schools, and will be translated into major languages for sale globally. Whatever anyone else writes, you are confident that your version of history will be the dominant one. However,... There is an episode in your national history that is hardly talked about and no one in your country is proud of. Genocide, abuse, something considered immoral and embarrassing. Do you a) include it fully b) gloss over it c) exclude it?
Also, to what extent is your own personal opinion of the morality of the episode factor in vs the collective /prevailing national sense of morality?
There are many examples of this in reality, often omitted due to religious reasons, and particularly homophobic or sexist agendas.
blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” – John 20:26-29
Posts: 196
Threads: 7
Joined: July 3, 2012
Reputation:
0
RE: Moral dilemmas
October 7, 2012 at 11:40 pm
(This post was last modified: October 7, 2012 at 11:42 pm by Jeffonthenet.)
(October 6, 2012 at 6:14 am)Doubting_Thomas Wrote: Post dilemmas and your view on the most moral action. When replying, please make it clear which dilemma your comment relates to. I hope this thread can help people explore relative vs absolute and secular vs religious morals.
Dilemma 1. A Father's Agonizing Choice
You are an inmate in a concentration camp. A sadistic guard is about to hang your son who tried to escape and wants you to pull the chair from underneath him. He says that if you don't he will not only kill your son but some other innocent inmate as well. You don't have any doubt that he means what he says. What should you do?
Re concentration camp. Pull the chair out. :-(
If I am understanding you correctly, this post is based on a fundamental misunderstanding. Having an absolute moral value could mean that in Dilemma 1., the right moral choice is absolutely to pull the chair out from under the son in order to save two lives. Academic Christians, as far as I am aware, when they say that there are absolute moral values, mean that certain things, like for example, killing babies only for the fun of it, are morally wrong. They do not mean that "killing is wrong in every conceivable circumstance".
"the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate" (1 Cor. 1:19)
Posts: 67293
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Moral dilemmas
October 7, 2012 at 11:46 pm
(This post was last modified: October 7, 2012 at 11:49 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Unless it's babies, for the fun of it. That's wrong in every conceivable circumstance yes? Like maybe it's thursday night in BFE, no fun to be had anywhere, still wrong...right? I don't know, the baby bit doesn't sound like much of a dilemma. Sounds like morality for mouth-breathers to me.
"These absolute moral values aren't absolute moral values except those occasions when they happen to be absolute moral values" 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 4196
Threads: 60
Joined: September 8, 2011
Reputation:
30
RE: Moral dilemmas
October 8, 2012 at 12:46 am
(This post was last modified: October 8, 2012 at 12:46 am by IATIA.)
The boy will die anyway, so that leaves the question of, should I be a killer or not. In this situation, I do not feel I am saving anybody. Not the boy obviously, maybe death is better than the camp for the other.
If there is a moral obligation, I believe that it must be to myself. I would let them be the murderers.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
Posts: 115
Threads: 17
Joined: September 29, 2012
Reputation:
3
RE: Moral dilemmas
October 8, 2012 at 2:35 am
(This post was last modified: October 8, 2012 at 2:36 am by Doubting_Thomas.)
IATIA, you might have missed the bit about the consequences if you do not cooperate: the guard kills another innocent person in addition to your son. On paper I think that's an easy one although obviously the reality would be very horrific.
Jeff, not sure I follow what I'm misunderstanding. I'm not a moral absolutist, and I'm just posting questions. What would u do in the circumstances?
blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” – John 20:26-29
|
