Ask, Seek, Knock

[Tea Earl Grey Hot]

...

I have explained this no less than three times now. Pay attention because this will be the last time I will explain this to you.

I hope so because your argument sucks.

Theolpus was a man who sent Luke to find out about Christ. Theo was not a Jew. So the to him to understand why jesus could be tied to the line of David through his father joseph when joseph was not genetically related to him would have made no sense, as he would not have grown up in that culture.

Assertion: it would have not made sense because of his culture.
Assumption: he needed to understand how Jesus was literally the son of David.
Assumption: Jesus was thought to be the literal son of David in synoptic gospels.

So Luke tied Jesus to david by his blood line through marry thus full filling the prophecy.

This is pure question begging. The issue is whether or not Luke tied the line through Mary and here you go assuming that he did.

Give me something like "The verse in Luke should be understood to be tracing through Mary's line and not Josephs because of A, B, C etc."

...For they hated Christ and the movement that lead jews to worship Him. We know Matthew recordes Joseph's blood line. which only leaves Mary in this equasion for luke to have recorded.

Or they both represent two different guesses (or traditions) by the writers as to Jesus' ancestry through the father, which is what it naturally reads as.

[Tempus]

bla bla bla I'm not reading 21 pages.

I was thinking the other day about all the harping on people do about Jesus dying on the cross. Now, I'm not trying to downplay crucifixion or anything, but that's actually not the worst thing that's ever been to someone by a long shot. People have endured a lot worse than Jesus' crucifixion (regardless of whether it occurred or not) without the help of Jesus. And on top of that he magicks himself back to life a few days later anyway for life in heaven.

[Drich]

bla bla bla I'm not reading 21 pages.

I was thinking the other day about all the harping on people do about Jesus dying on the cross. Now, I'm not trying to downplay crucifixion or anything, but that's actually not the worst thing that's ever been to someone by a long shot. People have endured a lot worse than Jesus' crucifixion (regardless of whether it occurred or not) without the help of Jesus. And on top of that he magicks himself back to life a few days later anyway for life in heaven.

You don't have to read 21 pages. Just make sense when you shift the topic of conversation.

[Norfolk And Chance]

You don't have to read 21 pages. Just make sense when you shift the topic of conversation.

Ahahahahahaha, a theist telling people to make sense, good one, ahahahahahaha.

[Drich]

[quote='teaearlgreyhot' pid='351093' dateline='1350630326']
[quote='Drich' pid='351090' dateline='1350629463']
[quote]Assertion: it would have not made sense because of his culture.[/quote]Fact. Because the Jews were commznded to keep their rules and regulations to themselves. Theolopus was not a Jew therefore would have no direct knoweledge of their laws, practices or conviction.

[quote]Assumption: he needed to understand how Jesus was literally the son of David.[/quote]Fact because in order to be the messiah He must be a desendant of David.

[quote]Assumption: Jesus was thought to be the literal son of David in synoptic gospels.[/quote]where did you see this?

[quote]Give me something like "The verse in Luke should be understood to be tracing through Mary's line and not Josephs because of A, B, C etc."[/quote]Ive done this 3 or more times and you have ignored what was written.

[quote]Or they both represent two different guesses (or traditions) by the writers as to Jesus' ancestry through the father, which is what it naturally reads as.[/quote]The Jews were fanatic record keepers, there would have been no question as to who's geneology was being used.

Again which brings me back to point 4 in my last post to you. If Mat and Luke were both just using a public document to denote the linage of Christ then how does this translate into a biblical error? You said as much yourself in your last statement.
[quote]"Or they both represent two different guesses (or traditions)" [/quote] http://www.biblediscovered.com/new-testa...genealogy/
This is talking about the destruction of the geneological record but this rabbi can still trace his ancestory back to biblical times. This is an on going tradition, one that ALL Jews were bound to in that day. So the further back you go the more accurate and inclusive the list gets.

[Darkstar]

The Jews were fanatic record keepers, there would have been no question as to who's geneology was being used.

You mean like the fanatical record keeping of the Roman government who didn't write anything about Jesus? (P.S. There may be some merit to what Drich is saying, and I've got bigger fish to fry anyway. Not to mention that there is always the scribal error excuse.)

[The Grand Nudger]

That's some pretty weak shit in the link you posted Dark...lol, good find.

[Tea Earl Grey Hot]

Assumption: he needed to understand how Jesus was literally the son of David.

Fact because in order to be the messiah He must be a desendant of David.

Assumption: Jesus was thought to be the literal son of David in synoptic gospels.

where did you see this?

Um, I see it just a few centimeters above:

Fact because in order to be the messiah He must be a desendant of David.

The assumption is evident in the fact that you think you need to find a literal blood line between Jesus and David. Since Joseph isn't the literal father, then you think you must find a literal line from Mary to David (even though it doesn't say she's related to David).

But why assume that you need a literal connection to David? You haven't explained why this supposed Greek reader of Luke needed to see a literal line between Jesus and David. You say because he wasn't a jew, it wouldn't have made sense because he didn't know the culture, but the connection between not knowing the culture and being confused about Jesus being a son of David through Joseph isn't clear at all. The idea of him being so dense that he couldn't understand that Jesus was an adopted descendent of David is itself an assertion.

Give me something like "The verse in Luke should be understood to be tracing through Mary's line and not Josephs because of A, B, C etc."

Ive done this 3 or more times and you have ignored what was written.

Yeah, no you haven't, not without just asserting it or without circular reasoning anyway.

Or they both represent two different guesses (or traditions) by the writers as to Jesus' ancestry through the father, which is what it naturally reads as.

The Jews were fanatic record keepers, there would have been no question as to who's geneology was being used.

You're just begging the question again. You're assuming one is Mary's line and one is Joseph's and then saying that because of the Jew's magical textual reading skills could see which was which.

It naturally reads as being two different and contradictory lines. To assert that one is Mary's even though there's no evidence at all that it is (her name isn't even mentioned in the line) is unnecessary.

Again which brings me back to point 4 in my last post to you. If Mat and Luke were both just using a public document to denote the linage of Christ then how does this translate into a biblical error? You said as much yourself in your last statement.

Who said they were relying on public documents? That's another assumption. They could be made up. And what public document would trace Jesus all the way back to Adam?

If they were just "inspired" guesses, and therefore since guesses could be wrong, there's no biblical error, that would mean the Bible is lying because it portrays both genealogies as the absolute truth. They can't both be true at the same time, so one or both of them must be wrong.

[Minimalist]

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_the_J...l_of_these

The Jewish requirements of hamoshiach are:

Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28)
Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6)
Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "HaShem will be King over all the world -- on that day, HaShem will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9)
Hamoshiach must be descended on his father's side from King David (Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1)
Hamoshiach will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)


There is no prophecy of a virgin birth - Isaiah 7 contains a short term prophecy that was fulfilled in Isaiah's lifetime. The prophecy itself makes no mention of a virgin. The Hebrew word for virgin is 'b'tulah' which Isaiah uses throughout his writings. However, in this chapter, the word 'almah' is used. Almah means young woman and in this chapter, the young woman in question was already pregnant. The issue was that the Greeks did not have a word that was the equivalent to 'almah', instead, the translators used the word 'parthenos' which can mean either young woman OR virgin. In the prophecy itself, young woman's child simply served as the timeline for the prophecy itself: by the time the child is old enough to know good from bad, X would have occurred.

There is no specification as to where hamoshiach will be born. Mentions of Bethlehem are in reference to hamoshiach being a descendant of King David.

There is no specification as to when hamoshiach will be born. Daniel was talking about the destruction of the first Temple, construction of the second Temple, and then the destruction of the second Temple.

As to whether Jesus met any of the requirements of being hamoshiach, the answer is that no, he did not meet a single one.

[Drich]

The Jews were fanatic record keepers, there would have been no question as to who's geneology was being used.

You mean like the fanatical record keeping of the Roman government who didn't write anything about Jesus? (P.S. There may be some merit to what Drich is saying, and I've got bigger fish to fry anyway. Not to mention that there is always the scribal error excuse.)

Christ's ministry lastest about 3 years, and it did not concern itself with roman affairs, so why would rome record any of what Christ did?