Bloody Christians - 20-30 millions killed in 14 years

[Doubting_Thomas]

I like reading about history and thought I had at least a decent summary overview of Chinese history, but I saw an article on BBC today about a war in 1800s which I wasn't aware of. I think many of us Westerners sort of lump most 19th century Chinese history into the Opium wars and boxer rebellion.

At the time China was ruled by the Qing dynasty (aka the Manchus). Buddhism was widespread but largely a peasant religion along with folk superstitions. The ruling classes followed Confucianism. However, Western powers were interfering and this included sending Christian missionaries.

One Protestant missionary (probably an American, Rev. I. J. Roberts who preached illegally) converted and baptised a seemingly bitter failed-applicant for Qing civil service, Hong Xiuquan. Hong quickly decided that he had revelations from God and Jesus which told him that he was the younger brother of Jesus (not sure if that's literal or not, Chinese culture often talks of non-relatives as 'elder brother') and set out to create a Christian Kingdom in China by the sword.

It was called the Taiping rebellion and cost 20-30 million lives. Most were civilians and many died of the famine and disease that accompany such war. In one battle about 100,000 people perished (battle of Nanjing). Both sides committed horrific war crimes, and some 600 cities were destroyed.

Much of his Christian theology is conveniently considered heretical by major Christian doctrines. Oddly, although it was ahead of its time in terms of gender equality, it was incredibly against genders even meeting, let alone mating. Even married couples were forbidden to sleep together at one point. Among the many moral laws imposed and punished inhumanely, polygamy was banned, including the Chinese custom of concubines.

Guess who had concubines though? Yes, Jesus' hypocritical little brother Hong.

Ironically the rebellion ended in part because the English and French assisted the Qing in suppressing it, for reasons of trade.


20-30 million people killed for the "Great Peaceful Kingdom of Heaven".

[Doubting_Thomas]

It's a shame there's not much to say on this. It explains why Christians chose to specify "of the 20th century" when pointing out the magnitude of Stalin, Hitler and Mao's death tolls (all of which are flawed arguments against atheism anyway for obvious reasons familiar to all here).

Next time they cite Mao or Stalin just remind them of Hong and his Christian kingdom that cost 20-30 million lives.

Of course it wasn't Christianity alone that characterized Hong's rebellion, it was ethnic and economic too. But Christianity was a huge part of it and he cited Christianity as the reason and legitimacy. This guy claimed to be the brother of Jesus, mandated by god to kill the 'demons' (Qing).

Ironically the outcome was probably the worst if the three likely ones; the Qing continued to rule until 1912, and the state after that was ripe for a second peasant rebellion sonewhat modelled on Hong's, which ultimately led to communist rule. Although not a direct cause, the American (political) and British (military) intervention to save the Qing from almost certain defeat set the scene for Mao 90 years later.

[Anomalocaris]

Attributing Hong Xiuquan to christianity is somewhat like attributing Stalin to Atheism.

Hong Xiuquan is better seen as just 19th century menifestation of a vicious cycle which has plagued China since China was first unified into an Empire. Basically, every dynasties that started strong has seen high rate of initial economic growth, which led to large scale population growth that outstripped agriculture development, leading to misery, corruption, and end up being toppled by large scale bloody peasant rebellions after a few centuries. Hong Xiuquan is just one in a series of such malthusian reapers in Chinese history. None of his predecessors were christian. His immediate successor, Mao, was communist and atheist. So the fact that he had something to do which christianity was incidental. The fact that Chinese culture and the Malthusian trap the country is in should dovetail viciously like clockwork every 5-6 centuries is the the real culprit.

[Polaris]

I think this has more to do with grassroots rebellion over the injustices wrought by a corrupt regime controlled by even more corrupt Colonial powers than it actually has to do with Christianity.

[Minimalist]

You would. Your grasp on history is weak.

[Cato]

I think this has more to do with grassroots rebellion over the injustices wrought by a corrupt regime controlled by even more corrupt Colonial powers than it actually has to do with Christianity.

Bullshit! I have had my fill of the typical Christian defelecting.

You always threaten your fucking god as if he/she is just around the corner, yet he/she never appears. Doesn't it bother you just a little that your god 'never' appears? I love to shove the mysterious ways bullshit up your ass; however, to never, I mean never, to get my point across I mean NEVER show up....what the fuck?

Your god may as well be a smurf. I hate smurfs; however, the little bastards have been seen on TV.

[Doubting_Thomas]

Hong Xiuquan is better seen as just 19th century manifestation of a vicious cycle which has plagued China since China was first unified into an Empire. Basically, every dynasties that started strong has seen high rate of initial economic growth, which led to large scale population growth that outstripped agriculture development, leading to misery, corruption, and end up being toppled by large scale bloody peasant rebellions after a few centuries. Hong Xiuquan is just one in a series of such malthusian reapers in Chinese history.

I agree on this part of the wider context, and of course Hong's was not the only rebellion at this time (the Muslims also rebelled for example). But this doesn't remove the Christian agenda from Hong's specific rebellion.

None of his predecessors were christian.

He was a convert, and sought to spread Christianity. In the end his kingdom was totally destroyed so that was the end of the road for that specific Christian stain strain.

His immediate successor, Mao, was communist and atheist. So the fact that he had something to do which christianity was incidental.

No. Mao was not really 'immediate' or a direct successor. There were other rebellions after (boxer rebellion probably most famous) and of course the Qings were pretty much finished by the Wuchang rebellion not Mao's subsequent communist one.

thanks for the thought-out view. I don't agree that Hong's attempt to create a Christian China can be breezed over so easily as coincidental to his motivations.

[Doubting_Thomas]

I think this has more to do with grassroots rebellion over the injustices wrought by a corrupt regime controlled by even more corrupt Colonial powers than it actually has to do with Christianity.

To quote Hong himself:

《斬邪留正詩》Poem on Executing the Evil and Preserving the Righteous
手握乾坤殺伐權，In my hand I wield the Universe and the power to attack and kill,
斬邪留正解民懸。I slay the evil, preserve the righteous, and relieve the people's suffering.
眼通西北江山外，My eyes see through beyond the west, the north, the rivers, and the mountains,
聲振東南日月邊。My voice shakes the east, the south, the Sun, and the Moon.
璽劍光榮存帝賜，The glorious sword of authority was given by the Lord,
詩章憑據誦爺前，Poems and books are evidences that praise Yahweh in front of Him.
太平一統光世界，Taiping [Perfect Peace] unifies the World of Light,
威風快樂萬千年。The domineering air will be joyous for myriads of thousand years.

[Polaris]

You would. Your grasp on history is weak.

Do you actually know anything about Chinese history?

[IATIA]

You would. Your grasp on history is weak.

Do you actually know anything about Chinese history?

This should be good!