Operation Pillar of Cloud (Israeli intervention in Gaza)

[Something completely different]

So after the obvious antisemite user Stanley has opened a thread on the subject of recent events in the middle east, roaming arround with his antisemetic conspiracy nonsence and probably will attract further fine speciments of stupidity to converse in nonsence together
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I thought of opening a thread on this subject in which I post links to newsoutlets which are objective and published opinions by people who`s worldviews are not centered arround racist stupidity and nonsence conspiracies on how the world "works".
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In addition to that I will write down my own opinion and hope that sane members will give theirs aswell.

The recent military intervention in Israel is named: "Pillar of cloud".
The term "Pillae of Cloud" is taken from the talmut`s book of exodus in which "god" guids his people to the "promissed land" "apearing in reality" shaped as a "pillar of cloud". -

I think the nameing is pure coincident or a attempt by Netanjahu to cuddle with the right-wing israeli electorat, and those who interpret "colonial, religious, zionist motives" into this are morons looking for conspiracy nonsence to to give their sociopathic existance a reason.

The operation was started after several rockets fired from the Gaza strip reached Tel Aviv and 3 israeli citizens were killed. The operation started with the killing of Ahmed Jabari, the leader of the Hamaz military wing and has continued with the boming of targets by the Israeli forces.
In the same time Hamas and other organisations have increased the number of rockets fired into Israel.

In my opinion a nation does not only have the right to protect it`s citizens and terretory but the obligation to do so.
And if a organisation like Hamas fires up to 800 rockets into Israeli territor by in the year 2012 by october, trying to put and end to this by military action is to me a reasonable thing to do.
As in case with any military conflict - civilians on both sides will suffer - but note that the people living in the Gaza strip could end this, by ending the rule of Hamas in Gaza.

I do think that Netanyahu is trying to appeal to the jewish fundamentalist part of the israeli electorat for the upcoming election - and is thereby taking a gamble in case israeli public oppinion shifts against the operation or the operation should be a failure.

"When the cannons roar, we see only Netanyahu and Barak on the screen, and all the other politicians have to applaud them," wrote the daily Haaretz in a commentary published Thursday. "The assassination of (Hamas' top military commander Ahmed) Jabari will go down in history as another showy military action initiated by an outgoing government on the eve of an election."

links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Pillar_of_Cloud

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germ...67645.html

http://www.spiegel.de/international/worl...67484.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20386755

[jonb]

In the council flats I was born in, our next door neighbours were Palestinian refugees, they had owned orange orchards in Jaffa for generations. I have strong memories of my best friends dad in early childhood telling me about his orange groves so I admit I have a bias.

My view is though when the Palistinians stopped fighting, did the evictions stop? What choice to they have? Fight and die or just die.

[Stanley]

This thread has already backfired eh German boy.

Links? NO NO NO NO, if people read links they are only reading somebody elses opinion, be a man German boy, THINK FOR YOURSELF TROLL.

[Something completely different]

I the council flats I was born in, our next door neighbours were Palestinian refugees, they had owned orange orchards in Jaffa for generations. I have strong memories of my best friends dad in early childhood telling me about his orange groves so I admit I have a bias.

My view is though when the Palistinians stopped fighting, did the evictions stop? What choice to they have? Fight and die or just die.

Well I grew up near a nazi-concentration camp with a dark chapter of history being part of our culture - and a resulting obligation to be supportive and helpfull towards the jewish people, so I to am biased.

I am generaly supportive of the two-state solution. I do think that conservative and right wing movements in Israel have done alot to make the 1990s peace process fail.
But I am certain that the Palestinians also did alot to let it fail. And since Hamas rejects a two state solution and actualy calls for "the annahilation of the jews" I do not eaven think that one should consider "talks" with these people.

Currently, I believe both sides have lost interest in peace.

[Minimalist]

and a resulting obligation to be supportive and helpfull towards the jewish people,

Noble...but when they drop cluster bombs on refugee camps even the noblest sentiment can be carried too far.

There are no good guys in that conflict. There are only victims and abusers. In that, its a lot like the catholic church.

Literature passed out to soldiers by the army's rabbinate "had a clear message - we are the people of Israel, we came by a miracle to the land of Israel, God returned us to the land, now we need to struggle to get rid of the gentiles that are interfering with our conquest of the land," the soldier told a forum of Gaza veterans in mid-February, just weeks after the conflict ended.

A transcript of the testimony given at an Israeli military academy at the Oranim college on Feb. 13 was obtained on Friday by McClatchy and also published in Haaretz, one of Israel's leading dailies. The soldier, identified as "Ram," a pseudonym to protect his identity, gave a scathing description of the atmosphere as the Israeli army went to war.

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/03/21

[Brakeman]

So after the obvious antisemite user Stanley has opened a thread on the subject of recent events in the middle east, roaming arround with his antisemetic conspiracy nonsence and probably will attract further fine speciments of stupidity to converse in nonsence together.

Has Stanley really said something against the whole Semitic people or just against jews? Anti-semite is the jewish attempt to bring in racism when the issue is usually religion. One could call Hitler a legitimate anti-semite because he opposed the entire set of people that are included in the set called Semitic people. However, people of today in the post zionistic Israel era almost exclusively speak of anti-jewish sentiment. It would be rare today to find a true anti-semite.
Since this is an atheist forum and we don't believe in any of the basis for a people called the jews, they are just as silly as scientologists or mormons to us. They get no special dispensation.

As for the topic, I am thoroughly disgusted with both sides. The muslims are perhaps more dangerous theologically, but the jews are more dangerous militarily, thanks to the west. The jews typically slaughter more people in the conflict, usually at a 10 to 1 scale, so I have no sympathies at all with them, they are much too thin skinned. I wish the secular world would conquer both and force them to study science and anti-theism topics, but that is not going to happen.

[festive1]

Noble...but when they drop cluster bombs on refugee camps even the noblest sentiment can be carried too far.

There are no good guys in that conflict. There are only victims and abusers.

Agreed, Min. There are really bad things that have happened/are happening on both sides.

[jonb]

These things are far more complex than this side that side, the problem is for me there is very little cultural difference, in either side and they both see the world in black and white terms, unless they change they will go on blaming each other until they are annihilated.

As Both sides attack any moderates or mediators.

[Something completely different]

Has Stanley really said something against the whole Semitic people or just against jews? Anti-semite is the jewish attempt to bring in racism when the issue is usually religion. One could call Hitler a legitimate anti-semite because he opposed the entire set of people that are included in the set called Semitic people. However, people of today in the post zionistic Israel era almost exclusively speak of anti-jewish sentiment. It would be rare today to find a true anti-semite.
Since this is an atheist forum and we don't believe in any of the basis for a people called the jews, they are just as silly as scientologists or mormons to us. They get no special dispensation.

Well as far as I know.

Antisemitism is the word used to define politicaly motivated discrimination and hatred of the jewish people (Jewish world conspiracy), this also includes non-religious jews, since they are considered (by antisemites) to be part of a "race"

Antijudaiism is the word used to define discrimination and\or reject of the jewish religion.

And I remember how I was tought at school, that "Semites" was the term given to people in the middle east as a race, under the influence of 19th century racism, and that it was later (end 19th beginning 20th century) only used for jewish people.

Noble...but when they drop cluster bombs on refugee camps even the noblest sentiment can be carried too far.

There are no good guys in that conflict. There are only victims and abusers. In that, its a lot like the catholic church.

Well I am not someone who gives them a free pass to do whatever they want.

Let`s just say, I understand and defend the existence of Israel to exist amongst the community of nations.

It has not got more or less rights than any other nation.

[Stanley]

Has Stanley really said something against the whole Semitic people or just against jews? Anti-semite is the jewish attempt to bring in racism when the issue is usually religion. One could call Hitler a legitimate anti-semite because he opposed the entire set of people that are included in the set called Semitic people. However, people of today in the post zionistic Israel era almost exclusively speak of anti-jewish sentiment. It would be rare today to find a true anti-semite.
Since this is an atheist forum and we don't believe in any of the basis for a people called the jews, they are just as silly as scientologists or mormons to us. They get no special dispensation.

Well as far as I know.

Antisemitism is the word used to define politicaly motivated discrimination and hatred of the jewish people (Jewish world conspiracy), this also includes non-religious jews, since they are considered (by antisemites) to be part of a "race"

Antijudaiism is the word used to define discrimination and\or reject of the jewish religion.

And I remember how I was tought at school, that "Semites" was the term given to people in the middle east as a race, under the influence of 19th century racism, and that it was later (end 19th beginning 20th century) only used for jewish people.

Noble...but when they drop cluster bombs on refugee camps even the noblest sentiment can be carried too far.

There are no good guys in that conflict. There are only victims and abusers. In that, its a lot like the catholic church.

Well I am not someone who gives them a free pass to do whatever they want.

Let`s just say, I understand and defend the existence of Israel to exist amongst the community of nations.

It has not got more or less rights than any other nation.

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Bedtime for me, I'm lucky enough to live in a part of the world that is not bombarded every evening with rockets from Israeli war planes, goodnight.