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RE: "Offensive Weapons" in the UK
November 25, 2012 at 5:54 pm
If you wish you can replace the phrase "UZIs and the like" with "sporting handguns" or "berettas" or whatever fits in there. The point I was going for would still stand.
Incidentally, I wasn't proposing buying your weapons, rather selling you all of my weapons. If you want to jack up the price into the thousands of dollars, I won't complain. 
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: "Offensive Weapons" in the UK
November 25, 2012 at 6:01 pm
(This post was last modified: November 25, 2012 at 6:01 pm by Chas.)
So, what exactly is the point of these laws?
Because it doesn't seem to have had a positive effect.
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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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RE: "Offensive Weapons" in the UK
November 25, 2012 at 6:05 pm
(This post was last modified: November 25, 2012 at 6:08 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Sporting handguns or berrettas still isn't representative of gun ownership. That's -my- point Stimbo. We own shotguns and rifles......what point can you possibly be making if your idea of gun ownership and gun law in this country isn't accurate? You hear horror stories about gun crime and how gun crazy we are...but it isn't the crushing majority of gun owners that shoot people up on a street corner in LA. It isn't the shotguns, or rifles (or even assault rifles) that are implicated in the crushing majority of these gun related crimes. The guns (and carrying habits of those who carry them) are already illegal in the vast majority of cases. Felons cant own firearms. Concealed firearms are illegal (without permit), handguns are heavily regulated - even in my state..where open carry is legal- if you put a handgun in your pocket you've committed a crime...most of the things you might invoke as a reason to enact a stricter law (or prohibition) are already illegal, they already carry heavy penalties.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: "Offensive Weapons" in the UK
November 25, 2012 at 6:14 pm
(This post was last modified: November 25, 2012 at 7:56 pm by Cyberman.)
Apart from that article being over three years old, and the fact that the Daily Fail is not exactly a reputable source even by Fleet Street standards, I see no mention anywhere of the use of offensive weaponry. Violent crime and offensive weapons are not necessarily synonymous. Then there is this from the now former Police Minister David Hanson quoted in that same article:
Quote:These figures are misleading. Levels of police recorded crime statistics from different countries are simply not comparable since they are affected by many factors, for example the recording of violent crime in other countries may not include behaviour that we would categorise as violent crime.
Violent crime in England and Wales has fallen by almost a half a peak in 1995 but we are not complacent and know there is still work to do. That is why last year we published 'Saving lives. Reducing harm. Protecting the public. An Action Plan for Tackling Violence 2008-11'.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: "Offensive Weapons" in the UK
November 25, 2012 at 6:17 pm
(This post was last modified: November 25, 2012 at 6:18 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Violent crime has fallen in the US consistently. Despite being a nation of gun nuts. If violent crime and offensive weapons are not synonymous then I don;t expect to see any justifications for firearm prohibition (or tightening of existing regulations) based on violent crime statistics.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: "Offensive Weapons" in the UK
November 25, 2012 at 6:29 pm
(This post was last modified: November 25, 2012 at 6:31 pm by Cyberman.)
(November 25, 2012 at 6:05 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Sporting handguns or berrettas still isn't representative of gun ownership.
That's why I left it open as to whatever you wish to plug into there. Berettas, shotguns, assault rifles, I don't care what you consider representative of gun ownership in the US. I wasn't trying to make a point about what happens in your country, only that these things outside of certain very specific instances are illegal in mine. Why do I keep having to say these things twice? You want to keep whatever weapons you own, that's fine, you do that. I don't want to take them off you; your nation has laws that allow you to have them and until or unless that changes, I will defend what you consider to be your rights. I might not agree with them, but they're yours by legal definition. Similarly, here in my country such weapons are a cultural anathema and a punishable offense. Whether one or the other, or neither, of these approaches is the 'correct' one is hardly for me to say.
Now whether you think the law ought to be changed, that's a completely different matter and one way beyond the scope of anything I've said or even have much of an opinion on.
(November 25, 2012 at 6:17 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Violent crime has fallen in the US consistently. Despite being a nation of gun nuts. If violent crime and offensive weapons are not synonymous then I don;t expect to see any justifications for firearm prohibition (or tightening of existing regulations) based on violent crime statistics.
No, I said "not necessarily synonymous". Whether it's me not being clear enough in my choice of words or others misinterpreting them, I'm starting to get annoyed now.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: "Offensive Weapons" in the UK
November 25, 2012 at 6:34 pm
(This post was last modified: November 25, 2012 at 6:36 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I'm sorry Stimbo, it seemed to me that what you found to be cultural anathema had some bearing on what was reasonable or unreasonable with reference to a comparison of the two countries laws. Mea culpa.
(I think you guys are getting a raw deal with a prohibition stance, and we're too permissive in certain areas/too draconian in others...so, middle of the road I suppose, on that count. I don't think either of our countries have their shit together RE gun laws.)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: "Offensive Weapons" in the UK
November 25, 2012 at 6:36 pm
(November 25, 2012 at 6:29 pm)Stimbo Wrote: (November 25, 2012 at 6:05 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Sporting handguns or berrettas still isn't representative of gun ownership.
That's why I left it open as to whatever you wish to plug into there. Berettas, shotguns, assault rifles, I don't care what you consider representative of gun ownership in the US. I wasn't trying to make a point about what happens in your country, only that these things outside of certain very specific instances are illegal in mine. Why do I keep having to say these things twice? You want to keep whatever weapons you own, that's fine, you do that. I don't want to take them off you; your nation has laws that allow you to have them and until or unless that changes, I will defend what you consider to be your rights. I might not agree with them, but they're yours by legal definition. Similarly, here in my country such weapons are a cultural anathema and a punishable offense. Whether one or the other, or neither, of these approaches is the 'correct' one is hardly for me to say.
Now whether you think the law ought to be changed, that's a completely different matter and one way beyond the scope of anything I've said or even have much of an opinion on.
(November 25, 2012 at 6:17 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Violent crime has fallen in the US consistently. Despite being a nation of gun nuts. If violent crime and offensive weapons are not synonymous then I don;t expect to see any justifications for firearm prohibition (or tightening of existing regulations) based on violent crime statistics.
No, I said "not necessarily synonymous". Whether it's me not being clear enough in my choice of words or others misinterpreting them, I'm starting to get annoyed now.
If you can manage to control your annoyance long enought to answer my question, I would appreciate it.
The question is, what is the purpose of the laws against "offensive weapons"?
Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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RE: "Offensive Weapons" in the UK
November 25, 2012 at 6:42 pm
(This post was last modified: November 25, 2012 at 6:48 pm by Cyberman.)
Maybe somewhere down the line I gave that impression. For the record, I don't exactly imagine the US being a nation of gun nuts walking around armed to the teeth like in some deranged western, despite what some of the more extreme news stories would try to have us believe (interestingly, as I type this, Dirty Harry is on the telly with his "most powerful handgun in the world").
(November 25, 2012 at 6:36 pm)Chas Wrote: If you can manage to control your annoyance long enought to answer my question, I would appreciate it.
My annoyance is fuelled by having to keep repeating and untwisting my words. If you can refrain from making me do that, I will control my annoyance.
(November 25, 2012 at 6:36 pm)Chas Wrote: The question is, what is the purpose of the laws against "offensive weapons"?
Umm... how about "to prevent people from having access to them without authorisation"? What is the purpose of any laws against anything you care to name?
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: "Offensive Weapons" in the UK
November 25, 2012 at 6:54 pm
(This post was last modified: November 25, 2012 at 6:55 pm by Chas.)
(November 25, 2012 at 6:42 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Maybe somewhere down the line I gave that impression. For the record, I don't exactly imagine the US being a nation of gun nuts walking around armed to the teeth like in some deranged western, despite what some of the more extreme news stories would try to have us believe (interestingly, as I type this, Dirty Harry is on the telly with his "most powerful handgun in the world").
(November 25, 2012 at 6:36 pm)Chas Wrote: If you can manage to control your annoyance long enought to answer my question, I would appreciate it.
My annoyance is fuelled by having to keep repeating and untwisting my words. If you can refrain from making me do that, I will control my annoyance.
(November 25, 2012 at 6:36 pm)Chas Wrote: The question is, what is the purpose of the laws against "offensive weapons"?
Umm... how about "to prevent people from having access to them without authorisation"? What is the purpose of any laws against anything you care to name?
That is not a purpose. That is the equivalent of "Because I said so".
What is the purpose of preventing people access to them?
Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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