Avoiding questions

[Angrboda]

I love it when Drich points out "flaws" in other people's thinking. Though given the volume of Coca-Cola snorted through my nose, if he keeps it up, I'm going to need a good ENT man.

I'm reminded of a Stephen King short story about a woman who commuted to work daily in some small Midwestern city. She kept looking for shortcuts into and out of town in order to reduce her travel time. Eventually, she had found shortcuts that not only shortened her travel time, but ended up traversing through other dimensions and universes. At the end of a commute, she would be pulling things off the grill of her car which no man has heretofore seen, or is likely to again anytime soon.

For many religious people, it is simply a matter of the pathways in their brain not going through the usual or expected routes, and like some absurd Fedex package system, it can only route a package two towns away by first going through the central hub in some far off location. There are many destinations where the theist's express bus simply does not stop, and whole sections of towns with permanent detours. Much of Christian apologetics is like some insane urban bypass project designed by an engineer beholden to Lovecraftian gods. In a word, in the mind of the theist, for many questions, the answer is simply that you cannot get there from here. I'm perfectly comfortable with this fact, as amusing and infuriating as it is at times to try to deal with these strange orbits. This is the way we humans are built. It's a part of nature just as tooth and claw is. And while I might fight for better maps and more productive routes, I don't blame the driver or pedestrian for the condition of the road. It sounds like I'm working up to something, don't it? Psych!

[Drich]

Drich, which bible is the right bible according to you.

The Holy One.

[Jackalope]

Nice non-answer, bro.

[Darkstar]

Drich, which bible is the right bible according to you.

The Holy One.

Nice non-answer, bro.

*looks up at thread title*
Oh, the irony.

[Drich]

So you support slavery then?

The biblical version yes.

How about killing entire towns of people if the majority religion differed from your own?

In general no, but if in the context of text you left (Meaning if I were an OT Jew under the law of moses) , yes.



[

wiki]History of Hinduism[/wiki]

Hinduism is a term for a wide variety of related religious traditions native to India.[1] Historically, it encompasses the development of Religion in India since the Iron Age traditions, which in turn stretch back to the prehistoric religions such as that of the Bronze Age Indus Valley Civilization followed by the Iron Age Vedic religion[citation needed].

Hinduism

The earliest evidence for prehistoric religion in India date back to the late Neolithic in the early Harappan period (5500–2600 BCE).

You're right, god is apart of it, seeing as he's not real. Funny, how you claim that every other religion has died off. I assume you mean every older religion, but even in that you would be incorrect.

I did not say Hinduism did not have a spiritual verfiable element to it. Hinduism does not place one in a direct relationshipp with God. It places one in a greater spirituality. While Christianity is promises a one on one relationship with God. You are comparing apples and oranges.

God wrote the rules that disqualified us. He also punished us for breaking the rules that he knew were impossibl not to break,

Why? Because He also provides attonement to where none of the rules are used as a measure for righteousness anymore.

and allowed things like slavery to slip by in order to focus on more important moral transgressions, like picking up sticks on a Sunday, for instance.

Maybe you should look at what slavery is outside what you currently understand it to be.

Redefining god does not change the original definition.

Actually in the course of the conversation i was having it does change the defination of God.

Of course, people may redefine him all they like, seeing as they will never find a compelling reason to correct themselves. Why pick another religion to make you feel better when you can just bend this one?

In turn why examine the God of the bible when you already have created one that is easy to create arguements against.

This 'love' is really just abscence of hate. Isn't that how psychological abuse works? Trick them into thinking not hurting = loving? Also, anyone could claim they have been to the gates of anything (presuming you are using a metaphor), but a dream is pretty weak evidence.

i can honestly say just by what you have written here you have no idea what you are talking about. 'This' love is the love we were created to experience.

If you do everything he tells you to, no matter how horrific.

---

Jeremiah 48:10

10 “A curse on anyone who is lax in doing the Lord’s work!
A curse on anyone who keeps their sword from bloodshed!

---

what am I? an old testament Jew?

Where did it say that was the only way to blaspheme the holy spirit?

We are told the only unforgivable sin (singular) was blaspheme of the holy Spirit, and the passage only gives one example.

[Darkstar]

So you support slavery then?

The biblical version yes.

The biblical version...temporary slavery? If the slaves were treated humanely, then why are there passages like this one:

---

Exodus 21:20-21
“Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

---

How about killing entire towns of people if the majority religion differed from your own?

In general no, but if in the context of text you left (Meaning if I were an OT Jew under the law of moses) , yes.

Is this about the recencey of the command or the ethics? If god had given that command to a group that included you personally, would you kill for him in this manner?

I did not say Hinduism did not have a spiritual verfiable element to it. Hinduism does not place one in a direct relationshipp with God. It places one in a greater spirituality. While Christianity is promises a one on one relationship with God. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Rotten apples to rotten oranges. If Hinduism had claimed to put people in a personal relationship with god, I can bet that you wouldn't even give it the little validity you have.

God wrote the rules that disqualified us. He also punished us for breaking the rules that he knew were impossibl not to break,

Why? Because He also provides attonement to where none of the rules are used as a measure for righteousness anymore.

First, why should we have to atone for rules that we can't possibly not break? Answer: Jesus will do it for us. Why does Jesus have to suffer when god can just forgive us outright? Also, if none of his rules are used anymore (despite Jesus saying that he did not come to abolish the laws) then does that mean they are flawed in some way, either literally or by the way they were applied?

and allowed things like slavery to slip by in order to focus on more important moral transgressions, like picking up sticks on a Sunday, for instance.

Maybe you should look at what slavery is outside what you currently understand it to be.

What kind? I am going to assume you mean biblical slavery. Which...is most closely related to indentured servitude.
Indentured servant

Indentures could not marry without the permission of their owner, were subject to physical punishment (like many young ordinary servants), and saw their obligation to labor enforced by the courts. To ensure uninterrupted work by the female servants, the law lengthened the term of their indenture if they became pregnant. But unlike slaves, servants were guaranteed to be eventually released from bondage. At the end of their term they received a payment known as "freedom dues" and become free members of society.[15] One could buy and sell indentured servants' contracts, and the right to their labor would change hands, but not the person as a piece of property.

Both male and female laborers could be subject to violence, occasionally even resulting in death.

And the bible never mentioned 'freedom dues', so only the time limit aspect applies. And I'm not so sure that it even applied in all cases.

Of course, people may redefine him all they like, seeing as they will never find a compelling reason to correct themselves. Why pick another religion to make you feel better when you can just bend this one?

In turn why examine the God of the bible when you already have created one that is easy to create arguements against.

Because claiming he did/said things he didn't to make him look good/bad would be dishonest. Likewise, ignoring things he did that would otherwise make him look good/bad would also be so. I don't need to make things up; there is enough already in the bible.

If you do everything he tells you to, no matter how horrific.

---

Jeremiah 48:10

10 “A curse on anyone who is lax in doing the Lord’s work!
A curse on anyone who keeps their sword from bloodshed!

---

what am I? an old testament Jew?

Would you be included under 'anyone'?

[Drich]

Why wouldn't that be a good thing?

Because the people who hate God and persecute Christians would be mixed in with those who Love God with all of their being.

Who's talking about scenery?

I was. i talked about the emptyness of the void when one first enters Hell and then continued to describe the dephts as one progressed into it.

I'm talking about your bullshit. You didn't feel confident with an interpretation of hell once upon a time (and trust me...I sympathize) but now it's starting to bend that way. Who gives a shit how big it is? What would it's size have to do with how you've altered your description of it in our conversations?

Again the size or compareing it to something tangable like Texas is an illustration that describes a vast number of possiablities as to how one experiences a place that may very well go on forever. Again, if Hell was only the size of texas one could experience all different types or aspects of Hell.

Are we flirting with dantes levels of hell now? At first I just seemed like a guy who would be "separated"...but now you're sure I'll be getting some wrath and rotting in some deeper inner circle?

I don't think their is a physical level or element to the torment. i think the torment of Hell is the abandonment of God and all of Creation. Even the part of creation that allows you to control your mind. their is a very primal part of your psychie that is tapped when you are being consumed. It is akin to the panic and desperation one feels when being burned or is physically on fire. but 10x's over. How long do you think you could hold out being in this state of panic and still retain control of your mind? (I did not make it past the gates.) I believe the levels of hell refer to one's consciecous experience of this place. The longer you hang on to your mind the deeper you go. i believe this to be the final mercy God shows us. Even though we are physically there what made us 'us,' is consumed by the sheer madness of Hell, and we wind up like Nebecanzzar (Given over to maddness/Like a terrified animal.) then there are some residents of Hell that are made to hang on alittle longer before they let go, and some still that i should think are made to experience eternity in Hell. (I believe this to be reserved for Satan)
*not actual scripture, just my personal experience of it.

---

Ahh, an open invite to be critical of one of you...

In just about every incarnation of God you bring to the table, it stinks of your own personal theological understanding of God. It would be like if I were friends with a famous person, and you only knew him through TV or worse yet just through the tabloids, and then started asking me to acount for his actions on a tv show or if you were to ask why he dumped this girl and starting going out with a much hotter actress...

If you want to address my friend or my God then get to know him then formulate questions around actual characteristics and not the crap that you 'seen on TV'

When have I brought a god to the table? I don't believe in them, what god would I bring? I criticize the god you bring. I don't know of any god through TV or Tabloids are anything like this.

I "know" it through you. How damning is that amigo?

Meh.. It still akin to reading of a famous person in a tabloid. Especially when you have the oppertunity to ask the celeb your self.

---

love it when Drich points out "flaws" in other people's thinking. Though given the volume of Coca-Cola snorted through my nose, if he keeps it up, I'm going to need a good ENT man.

I'm reminded of a Stephen King short story about a woman who commuted to work daily in some small Midwestern city. She kept looking for shortcuts into and out of town in order to reduce her travel time. Eventually, she had found shortcuts that not only shortened her travel time, but ended up traversing through other dimensions and universes. At the end of a commute, she would be pulling things off the grill of her car which no man has heretofore seen, or is likely to again anytime soon.

For many religious people, it is simply a matter of the pathways in their brain not going through the usual or expected routes, and like some absurd Fedex package system, it can only route a package two towns away by first going through the central hub in some far off location. There are many destinations where the theist's express bus simply does not stop, and whole sections of towns with permanent detours. Much of Christian apologetics is like some insane urban bypass project designed by an engineer beholden to Lovecraftian gods. In a word, in the mind of the theist, for many questions, the answer is simply that you cannot get there from here. I'm perfectly comfortable with this fact, as amusing and infuriating as it is at times to try to deal with these strange orbits. This is the way we humans are built. It's a part of nature just as tooth and claw is. And while I might fight for better maps and more productive routes, I don't blame the driver or pedestrian for the condition of the road. It sounds like I'm working up to something, don't it? Psych!

You got me. i read the whole thing, and trying to figure out what you were trying to say and nothing.

Next time I will read you last few lines first.

---

Nice non-answer, bro.

another example of a general misconception, this time about the bible. I answered what i was asked and nothing more, it is up to you guys to follow up if you want to know more.

[The Grand Nudger]

Because the people who hate God and persecute Christians would be mixed in with those who Love God with all of their being.

Why am I letting in people who persecute people -for any reason- all of a sudden amigo? I'm just not interested/energetic enough to be wrathful. Sure, people who hated god (me) in this scenario would be in my heaven, but so what. It's not like hating me is some kind of fucking pockmark on their souls.

I was. i talked about the emptyness of the void when one first enters Hell and then continued to describe the dephts as one progressed into it.

LOL, Dante called, he wants his version of hell back.

Again the size or compareing it to something tangable like Texas is an illustration that describes a vast number of possiablities as to how one experiences a place that may very well go on forever. Again, if Hell was only the size of texas one could experience all different types or aspects of Hell.

Do you imagine that the scenery actually changes much through Texas? I've driven through Texas more times than I can count..you know what really stuck with me? How the scenery didn't change. Even fell asleep at the wheel a couple of times.....because the scenery was so unchanging...

I don't think their is a physical level or element to the torment.

Guess I won't be rotting after all then.

i think the torment of Hell is the abandonment of God and all of Creation. Even the part of creation that allows you to control your mind. their is a very primal part of your psychie that is tapped when you are being consumed. It is akin to the panic and desperation one feels when being burned or is physically on fire. but 10x's over. How long do you think you could hold out being in this state of panic and still retain control of your mind? (I did not make it past the gates.) I believe the levels of hell refer to one's consciecous experience of this place. The longer you hang on to your mind the deeper you go. i believe this to be the final mercy God shows us. Even though we are physically there what made us 'us,' is consumed by the sheer madness of Hell, and we wind up like Nebecanzzar (Given over to maddness/Like a terrified animal.) then there are some residents of Hell that are made to hang on alittle longer before they let go, and some still that i should think are made to experience eternity in Hell. (I believe this to be reserved for Satan)
*not actual scripture, just my personal experience of it.

Yeah, sounding like torture again Drich. You know what, I'd still rather rot in that dungeon bud. The things that terrify you do not terrify me, it's really that simple.

Meh.. It still akin to reading of a famous person in a tabloid. Especially when you have the oppertunity to ask the celeb your self.

You'd be the tabloid. You're my only source of info for your own conception of a god. I know, I know, you really really really believe that your imaginary friend would talk to me if I'd just be nice, but it won't. At some point you're going to have to accept that and move past it. Until I gain the ability to read your mind, I can't ask your god anything about itself directly. I have to settle for you, as it's translator.

[Darkstar]

Nice non-answer, bro.

another example of a general misconception, this time about the bible. I answered what i was asked and nothing more, it is up to you guys to follow up if you want to know more.

Or you could have given a clear answer form the get go.

[Drich]

The biblical version...temporary slavery? If the slaves were treated humanely, then why are there passages like this one

I did not say they were treated Humanely. i said I approved of biblical slavery. As It is an example of how 'we' are to approach God. To get the most out of our relationship with God we are to Humble ourselves before him, and allow Him to Lift us Up. the word Humble here is the same type of Humility a slave has before his master. We would not know this humility if not for the biblical example. therefore the biblical example must be perserved so 'we' know how to approach God. i approve this example because we must learn to live this example as followers of Christ.

Is this about the recencey of the command or the ethics? If god had given that command to a group that included you personally, would you kill for him in this manner?

If I were in those circumstances as an OT Jew, Absolutly. "Ours is not to reason why, Ours is but to do and die."

Rotten apples to rotten oranges. If Hinduism had claimed to put people in a personal relationship with god, I can bet that you wouldn't even give it the little validity you have.

EVERY Single religion who puts it's god in direct contact with people or has a god provide for a people in exchange for offerings has failed. Why? Because people eventually see through the emptiness. Hinduism is different, it again does not offer direct contact with its gods it offers a sense of spirituality which can be obtained with or without its gods help. If Hinduism offered up it's gods to the general population (even the to the lower classes) it would fail even faster than any religion before it just by the sheer volume of people who would be constantly testing those gods.

Christianity is no different. Many of you have tested your version of christianity and it failed. But rather than admit that you picked the wrong one or the one with little to no God in it, you assume their is no God. What about those who seek out God and 'pick the right one?' We are the ones who keep this religion going. Why? Because we have Seen, Felt, Heard, Experienced all that we have been promised and Nothing this world can offer or threaten us with will EVER take that away.
Christianity is still around because God still honors those in christianity who A/S/K for Him.

First, why should we have to atone for rules that we can't possibly not break?

what do you mean?

Why does Jesus have to suffer when god can just forgive us outright?

Why do you believe God can forgive you outright?

Also, if none of his rules are used anymore (despite Jesus saying that he did not come to abolish the laws) then does that mean they are flawed in some way, either literally or by the way they were applied?

Not comming to abolish the Law means it all still applies EVEN THE RUES REGAURDING ATTONEMENT You are like the 5th person to bring this up and yet not understand THE WHOLE LAW part. The WHOLE LAW Includes Attonement! It is through attonement that we are Free from the Law! This is why God can not forgive you out Right (Because Christ did not come to abolish the Law!!)

---

another example of a general misconception, this time about the bible. I answered what i was asked and nothing more, it is up to you guys to follow up if you want to know more.

Or you could have given a clear answer form the get go.

A clear answer requires a lesson on how the bibles are translated. I have found the people like this have a set arguement to offer and when I say something like this (Not according to this set arguement) they bail. so I was giving the Op'er the oppertunity to bail before I changed the direction of his attack.

That said The holy bible is a complete answer in of itself. In that not all translations are nor can be considered 'holy Bibles." Some of them are commentary bibles or bibles written to a specific group of sect of christianity. Meaning the are not literal translations of the recognized texts the Holy bibles are translated from. Some translations may add books while others take them away or change them. These bibles are not considered "Holy Bibles"