Good ol evil

[SpecUVdust]

Here is a previous thread of mine that I would like to expand on:
http://atheistforums.org/thread-15686.html

I've been toying with a thought for years. So many people tell me they have never thought about it. I would really like everyone's ideas/views on this. Most importantly, I'm interested in how Christians will try to argue it.

Everything from here on is under the (in my opinion) dumb assertion that god DOES exist.
So, from the attached thread, one can justify that god is entertained by evil which equates to problems if tying to find the "goodness" of god.

Adam and Eve committed the first sin, giving us original sin. Why were they able to commit a sinful act? Why did god see the need to allow sin? Entertainment. But the bible says that satan(a fucking talking snake) deceived Adam and Eve into committing sin. So, for Adam and Eve to commit sin, satan MUST be present. So again, why would god have allowed satan to be near man.

So according to the bible, man did not create evil, man was infected with it. So evil existed before man. So where did evil come from? There are ONLY two options:

1- God himself created evil which means that evil is part of him. This would mean that god is the foremost expert on evil. Any argument?

2- Satan himself created evil which means that he is a creator! If satan created something that did not exist before then he could create anything and therefore would be equal in power to that of GOD. This implies that "Armageddon" would not be such a decisive war. Arguments?

One might argue that the bible says that satan " allowed evil to manifest in his heart." We'll, this still implies that it was created within him, that by "allowing" it to manifest in this way is still creation because the evil was not there before. It would be his tactic of creation. If he did not create evil, then god did.

Christians, do you see that it must be this way? One of these must be true. Which is easier to stomach? 1? Or 2?

Furthermore, maybe satan is the good one!? God, fulfilling the prophecy of "satan" has betrayed us and lied and convinced many that his words are true. Satan seems to take the higher ground and just ignores the dimwit tee loud mouthed GOD that is always talkin shit and creating double standards.

[JohnDG]

You would have no argument from me as I have already explored this topic and came to the conclusion that if god created satan a being of pure evil he is evil also. If god created man in his image than that would explain the reason we are capable of great good and evil. If were good and evil just as god is than he is not worthy of being our god or he created us as gods.

God being all knowing, all powerful, and all loving contradicts most of his actions in the bible and the punishment of his creations which he had not given free will for he knows our future.

[Zen Badger]

From Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

It's right there in their bible.

Now watch the apologist quickstep as they try to make it sound like something nice.

[KichigaiNeko]

From Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

It's right there in their bible.

You would think that after 2,000 years they would have edited that bit out wouldn't you??

[catfish]

So according to the bible, man did not create evil, man was infected with it. So evil existed before man. So where did evil come from? There are ONLY two options:

1- God himself created evil which means that evil is part of him. This would mean that god is the foremost expert on evil. Any argument?

2- Satan himself created evil which means that he is a creator! If satan created something that did not exist before then he could create anything and therefore would be equal in power to that of GOD. This implies that "Armageddon" would not be such a decisive war. Arguments?

One might argue that the bible says that satan " allowed evil to manifest in his heart." We'll, this still implies that it was created within him, that by "allowing" it to manifest in this way is still creation because the evil was not there before. It would be his tactic of creation. If he did not create evil, then god did.

Christians, do you see that it must be this way? One of these must be true. Which is easier to stomach? 1? Or 2?

False dilema...

3- Mankind created evil. If everything in creation was "good", then where was evil? If Adam and Eve did not know good from evil, then how could they sin? I thought a person couldn't sin out of "innocence"? Perhaps the knowledge of good and evil gave them a new perspective? What do I think the first "sin" was? Shame... (there eyes were opened and they realised they were NOT clothed, I.E. naked) What do I think the second "sin" was? Denial of accountability..

Have fun with that!
.

[Zen Badger]

False dilema...

3- Mankind created evil.

According to your book, god claims that privilege

If everything in creation was "good", then where was evil? If Adam and Eve did not know good from evil, then how could they sin? I thought a person couldn't sin out of "innocence"? Perhaps the knowledge of good and evil gave them a new perspective? What do I think the first "sin" was? Shame... (there eyes were opened and they realised they were NOT clothed, I.E. naked) What do I think the second "sin" was? Denial of accountability..

Have fun with that!
.

So their sin is being the way god made them?

[catfish]

False dilema...

3- Mankind created evil.

According to your book, god claims that privilege

Really?
רָע = ro
adj./n. bad, wrong, ill, lousy, foul, moldy, mouldy, noxious, unkind, verminous, atrocious; evil, wicked, vicious, meany, nefarious, baleful; dangerous, malignant

n. friend, companion, comrade; fellow-creature
nm. badness, wickedness, evil; trouble, calamity
nm. idea, thought

v. to worsen, become worse; deteriorate
v. to shout (with joy, triumph) , cheer; trumpet
v. to harm, hurt, do evil, do wrong, ill-treat
v. to worsen, make worse
v. to shepherd; graze, pasture; lead
v. to break
v. to join, associate, befriend; follow

If everything in creation was "good", then where was evil? If Adam and Eve did not know good from evil, then how could they sin? I thought a person couldn't sin out of "innocence"? Perhaps the knowledge of good and evil gave them a new perspective? What do I think the first "sin" was? Shame... (there eyes were opened and they realised they were NOT clothed, I.E. naked) What do I think the second "sin" was? Denial of accountability..

Have fun with that!
.

So their sin is being the way god made them?

How did you infer that from what I wrote???? Did God create them ashamed?
.

[JohnDG]

So according to the bible, man did not create evil, man was infected with it. So evil existed before man. So where did evil come from? There are ONLY two options:

1- God himself created evil which means that evil is part of him. This would mean that god is the foremost expert on evil. Any argument?

2- Satan himself created evil which means that he is a creator! If satan created something that did not exist before then he could create anything and therefore would be equal in power to that of GOD. This implies that "Armageddon" would not be such a decisive war. Arguments?

One might argue that the bible says that satan " allowed evil to manifest in his heart." We'll, this still implies that it was created within him, that by "allowing" it to manifest in this way is still creation because the evil was not there before. It would be his tactic of creation. If he did not create evil, then god did.

Christians, do you see that it must be this way? One of these must be true. Which is easier to stomach? 1? Or 2?

False dilema...

3- Mankind created evil. If everything in creation was "good", then where was evil? If Adam and Eve did not know good from evil, then how could they sin? I thought a person couldn't sin out of "innocence"? Perhaps the knowledge of good and evil gave them a new perspective? What do I think the first "sin" was? Shame... (there eyes were opened and they realised they were NOT clothed, I.E. naked) What do I think the second "sin" was? Denial of accountability..

Have fun with that!
.

As posted before.

From Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Mankind was created in his image was he not? Think critically you claim to have a soul that is eternal, so therefore you muse have the similar capabilities as god. Artist, Musicians, Engineers, Scientist, Philosophers, ect. Did god not give us these gifts?

[Zen Badger]

According to your book, god claims that privilege

Really?
רָע = ro
adj./n. bad, wrong, ill, lousy, foul, moldy, mouldy, noxious, unkind, verminous, atrocious; evil, wicked, vicious, meany, nefarious, baleful; dangerous, malignant

n. friend, companion, comrade; fellow-creature
nm. badness, wickedness, evil; trouble, calamity
nm. idea, thought

v. to worsen, become worse; deteriorate
v. to shout (with joy, triumph) , cheer; trumpet
v. to harm, hurt, do evil, do wrong, ill-treat
v. to worsen, make worse
v. to shepherd; graze, pasture; lead
v. to break
v. to join, associate, befriend; follow

What point is this gaggle of words supposed to be making?
BTW see my earlier post on Isaiah

So their sin is being the way god made them?

How did you infer that from what I wrote???? Did God create them ashamed?
.

God created them with the capacity to be ashamed.
And how is shame evil?

[catfish]

Keep posting... It won't change the fact that the original meaning of many Hebrew words may never be fully understood.
Keep the faith though, proclaim the truth as if you were there...