Touching Christmas Tale

[Undeceived]

Why argue from authority? Examine the evidence yourself.

Dude, you're the one who claimed "much of scholarship considers...". YOU, not I, are the one who invoked authority.

If you want to make positive declarations about scholarly consensus, do your own damn research and be ready to back up your claims with solid evidence, not a link to an apologetic website.

And when you're done, hop a plane to talk to the theologians and historians at Oxford University to explain to them how they got it all wrong. Good luck.

I did not 'invoke' authority. I mentioned that another camp of scholars existed and explained their view. I never made an argument for anyone being right and others being wrong. YahwehIsTheWay brought up the apparent contradiction between Herod's birth and a certain astronomical event. I said "Here's what might actually have happened that would resolve the conflict." Judge its reasonableness yourself. The link I posted gave arguments for both sides. No one has an ownership for interpretation on evidence. We know that Herod ceased being "Caesar's friend" and that such a loss in status has for other men resulted in different treatment by history books. Herod may have relinquished official rulership three years before he died. Can you tell me what you think about that?

[Minimalist]

“‘But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
are by no means least among the rulers of Judah;
for out of you will come a ruler
who will shepherd my people Israel.’”

You should read the rest of your own bullshit, son, instead of cherry picking one line of this crap and shouting " Yup - There's Jesus!!!!"

A Promised Ruler From Bethlehem

5 [a]Marshal your troops now, city of troops,
for a siege is laid against us.
They will strike Israel’s ruler
on the cheek with a rod.

2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”

3 Therefore Israel will be abandoned
until the time when she who is in labor bears a son,
and the rest of his brothers return
to join the Israelites.

4 He will stand and shepherd his flock
in the strength of the Lord,
in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God.
And they will live securely, for then his greatness
will reach to the ends of the earth.

5 And he will be our peace
when the Assyrians invade our land
and march through our fortresses.
We will raise against them seven shepherds,
even eight commanders,
6 who will rule[c] the land of Assyria with the sword,
the land of Nimrod with drawn sword.[d]
He will deliver us from the Assyrians
when they invade our land
and march across our borders.

7 The remnant of Jacob will be
in the midst of many peoples
like dew from the Lord,
like showers on the grass,
which do not wait for anyone
or depend on man.
8 The remnant of Jacob will be among the nations,
in the midst of many peoples,
like a lion among the beasts of the forest,
like a young lion among flocks of sheep,
which mauls and mangles as it goes,
and no one can rescue.
9 Your hand will be lifted up in triumph over your enemies,
and all your foes will be destroyed.

10 “In that day,” declares the Lord,

“I will destroy your horses from among you
and demolish your chariots.
11 I will destroy the cities of your land
and tear down all your strongholds.
12 I will destroy your witchcraft
and you will no longer cast spells.
13 I will destroy your idols
and your sacred stones from among you;
you will no longer bow down
to the work of your hands.
14 I will uproot from among you your Asherah poles[e]
when I demolish your cities.
15 I will take vengeance in anger and wrath
on the nations that have not obeyed me.”

Micah makes the absurd claim that the leader will defeat the Assyrians for the Israelites.....(they didn't, Assyria kicked the shit out of them.)

Hey, yhwh, how come your boy Micah fucked that "prophecy" up so badly? Maybe you need a better class of prophets?

[TarShoduze]

Yep, thanks for that--it was clear. However,

The "crowning" of Regulus (royalty) by Jupiter (royalty), converging with Leo (lion) told the wise men a king had been born to the tribe of Judah (represented by a lion).

As far as I know, stars cannot converge. They move together, and not independently. Or did I interpret "converge" wrong?

[Brian37]

I do not care about the details of the Jesus character because there is no such thing as magic godsperm in which a baby can be born of a virgin without a second set of DNA. The people who wrote that bullshit story were merely copying other "purity" tropes from other cultures. "Madona and child" is on the TEMPLE OF LUXOR and was so long before the Jesus myth. Avoiding biological birth in myth is not a new motif invented by Christianity.

Moral vs Immoral arguments about the stories may be fun to dicect but ultimately the fantastic claims are what matters. Christians merely took prior myths and incorporated winter solstice celibrations and adapted the Jesus myth to them.

[DeistPaladin]

I did not 'invoke' authority. I mentioned that another camp of scholars existed and explained their view. I never made an argument for anyone being right and others being wrong.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you did not intend to be misleading. Here's the rule you are apparently unaware of: If you use a word like "scholars" and combine it with "many", "most" or"consensus", you ARE invoking scholarly authority behind your claims. In the future, I trust you'll be careful to bandy these words around casually lest your credibility be damaged.

[Minimalist]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you did not intend to be misleading.

You're too polite, D-P. It is your one great failing!

[YahwehIsTheWay]

Hey, yhwh, how come your boy Micah fucked that "prophecy" up so badly? Maybe you need a better class of prophets?

Natually, I'll say when history and the Bible conflict, I'll go with the Bible.

Jesus did defeat the Assyrians, riding a raptor and leading an army of angels.



It's right there in the Bible right after the Bible mentions the age of accountability and how life begins at conception.

[Minimalist]

Damned Assyrians don't seem to know when they are conquered.

[Undeceived]

Yep, thanks for that--it was clear. However,

The "crowning" of Regulus (royalty) by Jupiter (royalty), converging with Leo (lion) told the wise men a king had been born to the tribe of Judah (represented by a lion).

As far as I know, stars cannot converge. They move together, and not independently. Or did I interpret "converge" wrong?

You're right, being so far away, stars do not visibly converge. But since planets have their own orbit independent of stars, they can cross paths with each other. It's called a planetary/stellar conjunction. So everyone knows what we're talking about:

[Lion IRC]

Of course Babylonian astronomers knew where Jerusalem was.

But the star wasnt telling them the location of Jerusalem

They would ALSO have known about Jewish Messianic prophecy.
...and the constellations of the zodiac.

Take a look at the night sky over Palestine in 3 - 2 BC.

Now what do you suppose astronomer mystics living during the Roman Empire would make of a ''halo'' conjunction being formed by the triple loop retrograde motion of Jupiter, the largest planet, named after the highest god in the Roman pantheon, around Venus (mother/woman) set against the backdrop of two zodiac constellations - one symbolized by a lion and the other signifying a virgin?

Herod the Great died in March of 4 BC. 5 BC would have been his last December. 3-2 BC would have been too late for him.

Too late for him to do what? Nobody is claiming he did anything post-mortem.