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(January 10, 2013 at 12:38 pm)jonb Wrote: I know, you see everything in confrontational terms, that my line was an explanation of the culture I come from, would be an idea alien to you.
Since one of the main motivations you say you stand for is a protection of what you take to be your traditional culture, which you seem to think is being threatened by other cultures: It seems odd you are unable to identify that talking about a different culture is not a personal attack on yourself.
When I did mention you, it was with reference that you describe those in opposition to you as left wingers, liberals, and in doing so you miss the truth there are those on the right who would also disagree with your position.
To me the debate is about more than a simple right left issue.
For instance my position that personal self control, is more important than 'I want a gun cos it makes me feel cool', would be hard to reconcile with a liberal agenda.
Quote:For instance my position that personal self control, is more important than 'I want a gun cos it makes me feel cool',
....that's all well and good if you're not facing an armed intruder(s) in your home at 1 am who's threating your family.
"Inside every Liberal there's a Totalitarian screaming to get out"
Quote: JohnDG...
Quote:It was an awful mistake to characterize based upon religion. I should not judge any theist that way, I must remember what I said in order to change.
Quote:A man was stabbed to death this morning in a toilet near the Shanghai South Railway Station, according to news on eastday.com.
In China, of all places, where guns are illegal? A killing with a weapon?
C'mon, Min, you know I love ya, man, but...posting up an article about a shooting death and immediately painting the title out to be explicitly against guns is an invitation to the slippery slope. Where's all the articles about people being stabbed to death, or beaten to death with baseball bats? Why only guns? Baseball bats are used every day for murder and crippling injury, why don't I see a dozen new threads being opened up about how we need to regulate baseball bat ownership? Hell, you realize you can effectively kill a good dozen people with a baseball bat if they're unarmed? Even if they're bigger than you? An average 12 year old child can swing a baseball bat hard enough to shatter a skull.
In fact, as far as murder with a baseball bat goes, it just happened last month...IN THE EXACT SAME CITY that I live in. Or rather township. Population of this area is about 1,500 or so, as I last recall [not actually the boonies, mind you; it's a sort of township within the greater metropolitan area of Madison].
Quote:December 3, 2012 – On the morning of Saturday, December 1st, Ryan M. Smith died at UW Hospital. According to an autopsy performed by the Dane County Medical Examiner’s Office, Ryan’s death was the result of blunt trauma.
Koalton P. Peterson is currently being held in the Dane County Jail on the new charge of First Degree Reckless Homicide.
Information obtained by Dane County Sheriff’s detectives shows that prior to the incident, the two men had been exchanging text messages over the sale of marijuana from Peterson to Ryan. Those text messages became argumentative, when Peterson told Ryan that he would not provide him with the drugs that night.
Shortly after midnight on November 27th, Ryan Smith and a female friend arrived at 407 Oak Valley Road in Mt. Horeb, where Peterson was staying with a friend. Peterson met Ryan outside the residence armed with a baseball bat, which he used to beat Ryan. Initially the female had remained in the vehicle, but when she heard noises she got out and confronted Peterson. She called 911, and Peterson fled through the back of the house.
Quote:A man was stabbed to death this morning in a toilet near the Shanghai South Railway Station, according to news on eastday.com.
In China, of all places, where guns are illegal? A killing with a weapon?
C'mon, Min, you know I love ya, man, but...posting up an article about a shooting death and immediately painting the title out to be explicitly against guns is an invitation to the slippery slope. Where's all the articles about people being stabbed to death, or beaten to death with baseball bats? Why only guns? Baseball bats are used every day for murder and crippling injury, why don't I see a dozen new threads being opened up about how we need to regulate baseball bat ownership? Hell, you realize you can effectively kill a good dozen people with a baseball bat if they're unarmed? Even if they're bigger than you? An average 12 year old child can swing a baseball bat hard enough to shatter a skull.
In fact, as far as murder with a baseball bat goes, it just happened last month...IN THE EXACT SAME CITY that I live in. Or rather township. Population of this area is about 1,500 or so, as I last recall [not actually the boonies, mind you; it's a sort of township within the greater metropolitan area of Madison].
Quote:December 3, 2012 – On the morning of Saturday, December 1st, Ryan M. Smith died at UW Hospital. According to an autopsy performed by the Dane County Medical Examiner’s Office, Ryan’s death was the result of blunt trauma.
Koalton P. Peterson is currently being held in the Dane County Jail on the new charge of First Degree Reckless Homicide.
Information obtained by Dane County Sheriff’s detectives shows that prior to the incident, the two men had been exchanging text messages over the sale of marijuana from Peterson to Ryan. Those text messages became argumentative, when Peterson told Ryan that he would not provide him with the drugs that night.
Shortly after midnight on November 27th, Ryan Smith and a female friend arrived at 407 Oak Valley Road in Mt. Horeb, where Peterson was staying with a friend. Peterson met Ryan outside the residence armed with a baseball bat, which he used to beat Ryan. Initially the female had remained in the vehicle, but when she heard noises she got out and confronted Peterson. She called 911, and Peterson fled through the back of the house.
What? Baseball bats being used in a MASSACRE?! We simply MUST ban them!
(January 10, 2013 at 4:23 pm)Creed of Heresy Wrote: See what I'm getting at, yet?
Yes, we should all have personal nuclear weapons, as there is no evidence they have ever been misused by a member of the public, and they make a very good ultimate deterrent.
Quote:A man was stabbed to death this morning in a toilet near the Shanghai South Railway Station, according to news on eastday.com.
In China, of all places, where guns are illegal? A killing with a weapon?
C'mon, Min, you know I love ya, man, but...posting up an article about a shooting death and immediately painting the title out to be explicitly against guns is an invitation to the slippery slope. Where's all the articles about people being stabbed to death, or beaten to death with baseball bats? Why only guns? Baseball bats are used every day for murder and crippling injury, why don't I see a dozen new threads being opened up about how we need to regulate baseball bat ownership? Hell, you realize you can effectively kill a good dozen people with a baseball bat if they're unarmed? Even if they're bigger than you? An average 12 year old child can swing a baseball bat hard enough to shatter a skull.
In fact, as far as murder with a baseball bat goes, it just happened last month...IN THE EXACT SAME CITY that I live in. Or rather township. Population of this area is about 1,500 or so, as I last recall [not actually the boonies, mind you; it's a sort of township within the greater metropolitan area of Madison].
Quote:December 3, 2012 – On the morning of Saturday, December 1st, Ryan M. Smith died at UW Hospital. According to an autopsy performed by the Dane County Medical Examiner’s Office, Ryan’s death was the result of blunt trauma.
Koalton P. Peterson is currently being held in the Dane County Jail on the new charge of First Degree Reckless Homicide.
Information obtained by Dane County Sheriff’s detectives shows that prior to the incident, the two men had been exchanging text messages over the sale of marijuana from Peterson to Ryan. Those text messages became argumentative, when Peterson told Ryan that he would not provide him with the drugs that night.
Shortly after midnight on November 27th, Ryan Smith and a female friend arrived at 407 Oak Valley Road in Mt. Horeb, where Peterson was staying with a friend. Peterson met Ryan outside the residence armed with a baseball bat, which he used to beat Ryan. Initially the female had remained in the vehicle, but when she heard noises she got out and confronted Peterson. She called 911, and Peterson fled through the back of the house.
What? Baseball bats being used in a MASSACRE?! We simply MUST ban them!
See what I'm getting at, yet?
...here's another one...Hammers and clubs kill more people than rifles and shotguns...outlaw hammers!
Quote:FBI: Hammers, Clubs Kill More People Than Rifles, Shotguns... WASHINGTON (CBS DC) – Annual FBI crime statistics show that more people are killed with clubs and hammers each year than by rifles or shotguns.
In 2011, there were 323 murders committed with a rifle but 496 murders committed with hammers and clubs. There were 356 murders in which a shotgun was the deadly weapon of choice.
"Inside every Liberal there's a Totalitarian screaming to get out"
Quote: JohnDG...
Quote:It was an awful mistake to characterize based upon religion. I should not judge any theist that way, I must remember what I said in order to change.
January 10, 2013 at 7:06 pm (This post was last modified: January 10, 2013 at 7:19 pm by Surtr.)
(January 10, 2013 at 4:42 pm)jonb Wrote: Yes, we should all have personal nuclear weapons, as there is no evidence they have ever been misused by a member of the public, and they make a very good ultimate deterrent.
You obviously didn't see what he was getting at.
I would also like to see how many crimes have been deterred by an armed citizen or how many criminals have decided against committing a crime because the potential victim was visibly armed. Sadly, that's impossible.
Quote:In the best published study of mass shootings, it was found that 99 had occurred between 1980 and 2010. We know that a number of mass shootings have been stopped by armed citizens. All but one of the “successful” mass shootings occurred in areas where armed citizens are banned. A comparison of mass shootings stopped by 911 response vs mass shootings stopped by citizens indicates that when citizens are able to stop the killing, they prevent 84 percent of the deaths.
One thing I often wonder; how many shootings and robberies would take place if everyone were armed? Despite what many misanthropes will tell you, the majority of human beings are NOT murderous psychopaths. The average individual, educated on gun safety, responsibility, and ownership and recommended to carry a gun with them wherever they go, is the most potent force for stopping most crime. How many robberies would take place if it was common knowledge that not only was the cashier of the gas station armed, but so was anyone in the store and also who might walk in or walk by? How many murders if everyone knew everyone else was equally armed and not such an easy target? Granted you couldn't stop the suicide-slaughterers from TRYING...but they'd kill a LOT fewer.
On the other hand in the case of so-called suicide-slaughterers, you might also end up with chaos and confusion if this were to happen in, say, a mall. Or so most would have you believe, except that the guy who is indiscriminately shooting at anyone he sees is a pretty obvious target even for stunned, scared individuals. Humanity DOES have a sort of pack-recognition instinct; an introduced threat draws the attention more than the reactionary individuals will from others surrounding him or her.
January 10, 2013 at 7:22 pm (This post was last modified: January 10, 2013 at 7:25 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Jon, find me something that hasn't been "mis-used by the public"......
@Creed, we have every reason to assume that the amount of robberies ( or crimes et all) have nothing to do with the number of people that own firearms - that is exactly whats so damning about gun control in the first place. Remove the guns and it doesn't seem to alter the stats, leave them and it doesn't seem to alter the stats. Something else is at play.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
January 10, 2013 at 7:24 pm (This post was last modified: January 10, 2013 at 7:28 pm by Creed of Heresy.)
(January 10, 2013 at 7:19 pm)jonb Wrote: Would you say Britain is a gun free zone?
Nope. Shootings still occur there. And so do murders. In fact, as CapnAwesome has pointed out REPEATEDLY [and I dunno why this has to keep being reiterated among fellow freethinkers who claim to support the idea of evidence and rationality but ignore hard numbers in this sole single instance], violent deaths in Britain actually went UP after guns were banned. They didn't have too many to begin with but after the ban, the murder rate rose. It did not drop. The drop only happened several years later and is consistent with the lowering murder rate here in the US as well despite no real action being taken against guns in the US in correlation, instead hinting at the rising levels of irreligion and education being the primary contributors.
(January 10, 2013 at 7:22 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Jon, find me something that hasn't been "mis-used by the public"......
@Creed, we have every reason to assume that the amount of robberies ( or crimes et all) have nothing to do with the number of people that own firearms - that is exactly whats so damning about gun control in the first place. Remove the guns and it doesn't seem to alter the stats, leave them and it doesn't seem to alter the stats. Something else is at play.
Well I'm talking more in the realms of idealism; where EVERYONE is fire-armed and it's common knowledge that everyone is fire-armed, not so much in a realistically-expected way.
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