All Hail the Second Amendment

[popeyespappy]

Yeah, no, those numbers are irrelevant. It's not important how many people are in possession of firearms, it's important who possesses them. If someone acquires a gun for reasons of self-defense, he will obviously be carrying it with himself almost at all times (otherwise, what's the point?). Since civilians in Germany can't get a gun for self-defense, no one other than security personnel (e.g. police and bodyguards) is walking around with them in public (hunters, collectors and people who enjoy target shooting have no reason or permission to do so). If you go through this thread and read all of the incidents that Minimalist has posted, you'll notice how many, if not most of them, could not have happened in Germany since people wouldn't have been able to carry their gun in public. Another common cause is that somebody left his gun in an unsafe place at home where it could get in the hands of, say, children who ended up accidentally shooting someone. In Germany, you are required, by law, to own a secure storing place for your firearms. Go and look through all of the news reports in this thread and tell me how many of these accidents you think would have happened in Germany. I'll wait.

Do you think it's a coincidence that Germany and countries with similar gun laws (protip: Canada's gun laws aren't similar - the absence of self-defense as a valid reason to acquire a firearm makes a huge difference) have a much lower gun crime rate compared to the US and Canada?

The ability to acquire a gun for the purpose of self-defense does not automatically grant the right to carry that firearm loaded in public. Not in Canada. Not even in most of the US. The laws covering who is allowed to carry a loaded firearm in public are for all practical intents and purposes the same in Canada as they are in Germany. I don’t know what circumstance a German civilian would be issued a carry permit, but the provisions to do so do exist under German law.

Permits to carry a loaded firearm in public for self-defense in Canada are for practical purposes limited to professional security personnel just as they are in Germany. Such a permit can be issued to a Canadian civilian just as one can be issued to a German civilian only in exceptional circumstances. In Canada in order for a civilian to get such a permit they must demonstrate an immediate threat to life. Local law enforcement must also issue a written statement that they cannot protect the applicate from the stated threat. I am not aware of any similar requirements in Germany. If Germany does not have similar requirements then Canadian law covering the issue of carry permits for self-defense are actually more restrictive than German law.

Hunters and sport shooters are allowed loaded weapons only while they are actively engaged in those sports just like in Germany. In Canada weapons are required to be unloaded and secured while transporting them to such activities.

Canadian law also has provisions for the safe storage of firearms and ammunition similar to those of Germany. Firearms in Canada must be secured or disabled and stored separately from ammunition. There are exceptions under Canadian law for farmers that need access to weapons to control vermin, and for people living in areas considered to be remote wilderness. That is understandable as Canada is more than 27 times the size of Germany and most of it is remote wilderness. Canada also has a large population of dangerous predators when compared to Germany. For example Canada has an estimated 50,000 gray wolves. Germany’s estimated population of wolves is less than 200. Canadian also has 25,000 brown bears, and who knows how many polar bears, black bears and cougars. Germany's estimated population of those species is zero.

So here is a pro tip for you, Vosur. Do a little research on your topic before you start making claims about it. I don't know where you got the idea that there are a bunch of Canadians running around armed in public, but it simply is not true. Canada is not the US. Canadian gun laws are very similar to German gun laws, and the gun related injury and death rates in Canada are a lot closer to those in Germany than they are to the US.

[The Grand Nudger]

China is already building a car free city, many other cities are announcing plans to be car free on a timetable - yet more cities still have managed with very low involvement in automobiles (to the point of it being a cultural more).

Pretty sure that we don't need to figure anything out at all. It's already happening.

(sounds like our law is very similar to Canadian law as well Popeye)

[Vosur]

Yeah, no, those numbers are irrelevant. It's not important how many people are in possession of firearms, it's important who possesses them. If someone acquires a gun for reasons of self-defense, he will obviously be carrying it with himself almost at all times (otherwise, what's the point?). Since civilians in Germany can't get a gun for self-defense, no one other than security personnel (e.g. police and bodyguards) is walking around with them in public (hunters, collectors and people who enjoy target shooting have no reason or permission to do so). If you go through this thread and read all of the incidents that Minimalist has posted, you'll notice how many, if not most of them, could not have happened in Germany since people wouldn't have been able to carry their gun in public. Another common cause is that somebody left his gun in an unsafe place at home where it could get in the hands of, say, children who ended up accidentally shooting someone. In Germany, you are required, by law, to own a secure storing place for your firearms. Go and look through all of the news reports in this thread and tell me how many of these accidents you think would have happened in Germany. I'll wait.

Do you think it's a coincidence that Germany and countries with similar gun laws (protip: Canada's gun laws aren't similar - the absence of self-defense as a valid reason to acquire a firearm makes a huge difference) have a much lower gun crime rate compared to the US and Canada?

The ability to acquire a gun for the purpose of self-defense does not automatically grant the right to carry that firearm loaded in public. Not in Canada. Not even in most of the US. The laws covering who is allowed to carry a loaded firearm in public are for all practical intents and purposes the same in Canada as they are in Germany. I don’t know what circumstance a German civilian would be issued a carry permit, but the provisions to do so do exist under German law.

Permits to carry a loaded firearm in public for self-defense in Canada are for practical purposes limited to professional security personnel just as they are in Germany. Such a permit can be issued to a Canadian civilian just as one can be issued to a German civilian only in exceptional circumstances. In Canada in order for a civilian to get such a permit they must demonstrate an immediate threat to life. Local law enforcement must also issue a written statement that they cannot protect the applicate from the stated threat. I am not aware of any similar requirements in Germany. If Germany does not have similar requirements then Canadian law covering the issue of carry permits for self-defense are actually more restrictive than German law.

Hunters and sport shooters are allowed loaded weapons only while they are actively engaged in those sports just like in Germany. In Canada weapons are required to be unloaded and secured while transporting them to such activities.

Canadian law also has provisions for the safe storage of firearms and ammunition similar to those of Germany. Firearms in Canada must be secured or disabled and stored separately from ammunition. There are exceptions under Canadian law for farmers that need access to weapons to control vermin, and for people living in areas considered to be remote wilderness. That is understandable as Canada is more than 27 times the size of Germany and most of it is remote wilderness. Canada also has a large population of dangerous predators when compared to Germany. For example Canada has an estimated 50,000 gray wolves. Germany’s estimated population of wolves is less than 200. Canadian also has 25,000 brown bears, and who knows how many polar bears, black bears and cougars. Germany's estimated population of those species is zero.

So here is a pro tip for you, Vosur. Do a little research on your topic before you start making claims about it. I don't know where you got the idea that there are a bunch of Canadians running around armed in public, but it simply is not true. Canada is not the US. Canadian gun laws are very similar to German gun laws, and the gun related injury and death rates in Canada are a lot closer to those in Germany than they are to the US.

I'll give your post the same treatment you gave mine by ignoring most of it. Thanks for playing.

[Minimalist]

It's not important how many people are in possession of firearms, it's important who possesses them.

Yeah - it is. When every yahoo is walking around with a fucking gun things get out of control quite quickly. Witness, 'Murrica.

[popeyespappy]

I'll give your post the same treatment you gave mine by ignoring most of it. Thanks for playing.

I'll assume that means in light of evidence presented you have determined that your original position that German gun laws are so different than Canada's is indefensible.

[Vosur]

Yeah - it is. When every yahoo is walking around with a fucking gun things get out of control quite quickly. Witness, 'Murrica.

My point exactly, Min. People who don't need guns shouldn't have the right to own them. Self-defense is a terrible reason for owning a firearm; a taser would do the job just as well for the average person.

[Minimalist]

The same idiots who shoot themselves with their guns would shoot themselves with their tasers, Vosur.

As the man said:

[Tonus]

My point exactly, Min. People who don't need guns shouldn't have the right to own them. Self-defense is a terrible reason for owning a firearm; a taser would do the job just as well for the average person.

"Say what?"

[Vosur]

The same idiots who shoot themselves with their guns would shoot themselves with their tasers, Vosur.

As the man said:

That's true, but it wouldn't be a fatal accident.

[Chas]

Automobile accident deaths (19.1/100,000) far outweigh accidental firearms deaths (0.3/100,000), and even outweigh all firearms deaths (10.3/100,000).

Am I interpreting this correctly?
If accidental firearm deaths are only 0.3/100,000, does that mean that the 10.0/100,000 other firearm deaths are intentional?
And you think that 10/100,000 intentional deaths compares favorably with 19.1/100,000 accidental deaths.

I ask only for clarification of your position. I don't expect to change mine.

The discussion point was about accidental deaths.
The majority of firearms deaths are suicides, which accounts for only half of suicides (in the U.S.).

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It's not important how many people are in possession of firearms, it's important who possesses them.

Yeah - it is. When every yahoo is walking around with a fucking gun things get out of control quite quickly. Witness, 'Murrica.

You seem to have missed his point completely.