Jesus, Least Fit Moral Judge

[Faith No More]

I think the problem with this argument is that you are boxing God into a time frame. You are saying there is evil in the world - why doesn't God put an end to it? We are, however, assuming that God is real, and that he says he is who he says he is. This means that God has created space-time itself, and he is outside of time. I would argue that because God is outside of time, from God's point of view evil entered the universe and he defeated it at the same "time". How can you judge God while only looking at the past/present?

Well, God understands that, as we perceive it, there is suffering in the world, doesn't he? Why is it that God is only concerned with things from his point of view?

[catfish]

No you are not. You are setting us up in your own mind so you can have some false sense of superiority.

How could this be true if i have openly admitted to be as sinful as anyone here?

I have said this at least 15 times in this thread. The only difference between any of you an me is i sought the attonemnt offered by Christ. That however does not make me any better or more deserving. Just compliant.

Yeshua didn't offer "atonement", he offered reconciliation. "No man may be ransommed..."
.

[Brian37]

I think the problem with this argument is that you are boxing God into a time frame. You are saying there is evil in the world - why doesn't God put an end to it? We are, however, assuming that God is real, and that he says he is who he says he is. This means that God has created space-time itself, and he is outside of time. I would argue that because God is outside of time, from God's point of view evil entered the universe and he defeated it at the same "time". How can you judge God while only looking at the past/present?

Or the option Hawkins put forth "A god is not required".

Does the ocean need Posiden to manifest into a hurricane? Does lightening need Thor?

It never occurs to the believer that a natural un cognitive "what" is what is going on and does not need a magical "who" to occur.

And I find it absurd to suggest we don't judge your book character you claim is real when it throughout that book judges us all the time. It's called hypocrisy.

See if you can spot the pattern.

"Allah is outside space and time so therefore you cant judge him"
"Yahweh is outside space and time so therefore you cant judge him"
"Vishnu is outside space and time so therefore you cant judge him"
"The force is outside space and time so therefor you cant judge it"

Or, how about using a little Ocham's Razor

Could it be that the simplest solution to why god claims exist is because humans can and do have vivid imaginations?

Think about why you reject all other god claims besides your own. Understand why you rightfully reject those claims then maybe you can understand why we reject yours as well. The only difference between you and I is that I simply reject one more god claim than you do.

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[quote='Drich' pid='386065' dateline='1358193535']

How could this be true if i have openly admitted to be as sinful as anyone here?

I have said this at least 15 times in this thread. The only difference between any of you an me is i sought the attonemnt offered by Christ. That however does not make me any better or more deserving. Just compliant.

Yeshua didn't offer "atonement", he offered reconciliation. "No man may be ransommed..."
.

I don't care about your magic baby zombi god myth written by tribalistic goat hearders. The Hebrews stole the Yahweh name from the polytheism of ancient Iraq.

Why do you think the Ugartic texts say the same thing as the bible "Let us make them in our image" In the Ugartic texts "Us was many gods and lesser gods making humans like them." The Hebrews stole that motif because they wanted to be the new political power.

Look dude, I really don't give one shit about your myth. You refuse to accept that ALL MYTHS are inventions of humans and simply get stolen from prior tropes, motifs and cultures.

Neither Christians or Hebrews were the first man made superstitions and they are not the only superstitions in the world today.

People like you are the reason idiots like L Ron Hubbard continue to start new superstitions. Gullible humans have always fallen for invisible friends, you are merely another.

[catfish]

Who cares what you think?
.

[Hoc est Corpus]

I think time is very relevant to this conversation. If God allows someone to die a horrific death on Earth but at the same time has been spending eternity with that person by his side, how is that allowing evil - when we are also out side of time I don't think we will view this as evil either.

Brian37: We are assuming in this discussion that God exists.

[Brian37]

I have said this at least 15 times in this thread. The only difference between any of you an me is i sought the attonemnt offered by Christ. That however does not make me any better or more deserving. Just compliant.

Compliant? You think that lowly of yourself?. I think humans as individuals are much happier on average when they have a say and most humans don't like being slaves. I think you deserve to be treated better than mere property.

Who cares what you think?

Obviously not you. But what is more important is a very needless and horrible mentality you subject yourself to.

Again, see if you can spot the pattern.

"I'm merely being compliant to the will of Allah"
"I am merely being compliant to the will of Yahweh"
"I am merely being compliant to the will of the Communist party"

See how that works? You think it is not the same as what you are doing to yourself, but it is no different.

I think humans are much happier when they have a say in what happens to them. I think you needlessly replace your own individual thinking and replace it with a utopia that does not exist. It may bring you comfort, but in mass any form of blind loyalty can lead to really horrible things.

Not trying to hurt you which is what you falsely think. I am trying to snap you out of your dream state.

---

I think time is very relevant to this conversation. If God allows someone to die a horrific death on Earth but at the same time has been spending eternity with that person by his side, how is that allowing evil - when we are also out side of time I don't think we will view this as evil either.

Brian37: We are assuming in this discussion that God exists.

Ok, then say "lets pretend" because in reality that is what they are doing. Lets not coddle their superstitions. I think most people can put their adult pants on if you give them a chance.

[Drich]

Actually, yes. The conditions for the original sin were put into place by God. He made the tree from which they weren't supposed to eat, and he made Eve gullible. He also made the serpent who charmed her. Didn't God make everything?

Yes, God made choice. All of those things were needed to provide true choice.

Why were we given that ability, when the Bible makes it clear that God hates it when we express our own will?

So we would ultimatly have the ablity to choose where Wanted to spend eternity.

Why would he give us the option to disobey if he didn't want us to disobey, and would hand down harsh punishments for disobedience?

Seeing Banishment as a Harsh punishment is all a matter of perspective. God created a Race of being to Serve in Heaven, and when given the choice a 1/3 left Heaven in favor of banishment. we have the option to choose to seperate ourself from God Even though God does not want us to seperate ourselves from Him.

If God gave us that choice, then it can only he his fault that we choose it.

Why do you believe one needs to assign blame for choice?

Why should we atone for something we can't avoid doing?

Because it seperates us from God. and if we Truly love God we would not want to be seperated from him.

Why should we be sorry to God when it's his fault we're made this way?

We are made this way, to give us choice.

If a design fails, by definition it is not perfect. If God is perfect, then the failure of humanity was intentional.

...and?
Now, Finish your thought. The failure of Humanity was planned but so was the redemption of humanity was planned as well.

Why should I be sorry for breaking arbitrary rules? Why should I want a relationship with a God who makes rules I can't follow and expects me to atone for it?

Not all do Hence the choice/sin you have been born unto. You have been given over to choose, That you choose is the purpose of this life, not what you choose. What you choose in this life will determine the next.

I judge God by 'moral' standards because I see no reason to accept your assumption that God's standards are better than mine.

Remember God and I ascribe to the might makes right philosphy. Because He is in power and has complete Authority His standards do indeed trump your own.

Remember Judgement is not about moral philosphy or a eastern sense of enlightment. It's about What God says do, and where you fall between what He said do and what you have done. Because you fall short your only hope lies in attonemnt/grace.

[Brian37]

[quote='Drich]We are made this way, to give us choice.[quote]

"We were made this way because Allah did it, to give us a choice"
"We were made this way because Yahweh did it, to give us a choice"
"We were made this way because a pink unicorn made us, to give us a choice"


Well, take your pick because to me any jackass that would baby sit a kid the way your fictional god character "takes care" of us would only lead me to conclude such a character is a selective deadbeat, or completely inept, or malicious.

I wouldn't hire your god to baby sit my cat. I'd come home and he'd be dead.

[Brakeman]

I wouldn't hire your god to baby sit my cat. I'd come home and he'd be dead.

Not only that, he'd be telling you he was in cat hell for all eternity, but if you'll give his church money, he can still save your dog..

[Surtr]

Yes, God made choice. All of those things were needed to provide true choice.

So God was faking it when he acted surprised at their actions? He was faking it when he couldn't find them in the garden?

we have the option to choose to seperate ourself from God Even though God does not want us to seperate ourselves from Him.

Why would God give us the ability disobey him if it would only end in never ending suffering due to our perceived "ignorance"?

Why do you believe one needs to assign blame for choice?

God is omniscient and omnipotent, according to the bible. He knows what choices you will make and apparently has the power to stop your trip to hell.

But he does not. He puts no effort into it. It's like he picks and chooses people when they are born. "Heaven, heaven, fuck you, you're going to hell, hell" etc.

Because it seperates us from God. and if we Truly love God we would not want to be seperated from him.

So God caused us to do these actions because of the way he designed us? Is God playing a game with us? "I know you're going to sin, but I'm not going to stop you. You have to come apologize."

We are made this way, to give us choice.

So, if I'm raised in a Muslim country and taught all my life that Christianity is evil, I will go to hell and it is my fault, not the fault of God? If I find no convincing evidence for his existence yet live a great life, it is my fault when I go to hell? This isn't a fucking choice, it's a sick game by some malevolent creator.

Now, Finish your thought. The failure of Humanity was planned but so was the redemption of humanity was planned as well.

Why does he need humanity to fail? So he can watch millions die? Or because whoever made this story up needed to fill some space?

Not all do Hence the choice/sin you have been born unto. You have been given over to choose, That you choose is the purpose of this life, not what you choose. What you choose in this life will determine the next.

There is no choice. It's completely controlled and predestined. You were DESIGNED to make those decisions. And even if you weren't, God would know what you would do.

"Sin you have been born unto."

Why should I suffer for something I didn't do?

Because you fall short your only hope lies in attonemnt/grace.

Maybe that will happen.

Or maybe I'm just another toy, another puppet made to suffer forever by your evil "God".