Kittenshere Continue thread

[Darwinian]

This is a very wierd sort of logic. As far as I can make out you are arguing that because there are things that defy human understanding it therefore follows that there must be a higher power.

But how can you come to this conclusion if the understanding and the ability to deduce a higher power is beyond our understanding?

[Tiberius]

The problem is how you decide to define something as "unexplainable". We can label things as "unexplained" easily (if they lack a explanation), but to label something as "unexplainable" means that there literally is no explanation. In order to know this, one must know everything (or they cannot know that an explanation might be produced in the future).

There are many things we still cannot explain, but every year some of those move into the set of "explained" things, and we are able to do this through scientific endeavor (and logic!).You cannot give me one valid reason why there would be a higher force. This certainly doesn't mean "there is no higher force", but that there is no good reason to believe there is one. Saying "there exists a higher force but it is far too complex for our logic to understand" is a cop-out, the ultimate non-answer. If such a being defies human logic, then to logically form an argument for it is contradictory.

I agree, everything has a cause within the universe we live in. We seek out these causes, and seek to explain these causes. However just because there exists the question "what caused this" does not mean the answer is "God". The presence of a question only implies the lack of an answer, and you can deduce nothing from a lack of an answer (far less an actual answer).

[kittenshere]

This is a very wierd sort of logic. As far as I can make out you are arguing that because there are things that defy human understanding it therefore follows that there must be a higher power.

But how can you come to this conclusion if the understanding and the ability to deduce a higher power is beyond our understanding?

Everything comes from something. If something is unexplanable by every human on earth then it must have came from somewhere just as earth itself did. Earth by the way, did not create itself.

[Eilonnwy]

Everything comes from something. If something is unexplanable by every human on earth then it must have came from somewhere just as earth itself did. Earth by the way, did not create itself.

Your statement is completely idiotic. You're saying if something is "unexplainable it must come from somewhere." That statement is kind of "No shit". You then say it must have been created, well created implies a creator so I would disagree.

Unexplained does mean it was created by a creator. It means it's unexplained. You can't say that you have no explanation for something and then that you do because God did it. It's an oxymoron. If you can't explain something, you can't explain it. So stop trying to explain it.

[Edwardo Piet]

This is a very wierd sort of logic. As far as I can make out you are arguing that because there are things that defy human understanding it therefore follows that there must be a higher power.

But how can you come to this conclusion if the understanding and the ability to deduce a higher power is beyond our understanding?

It's basically the logical fallacy of The Argument from Personal Incredulity.

"I can't imagine how any of this would work without a creator...therefore: Goddidit".

EvD

[Samson]

Of course Earth did not create itself, but we do know that a big fairy in the sky did not go "POOF" there it is either. We at least have a Scientific explanation for it's creation from the "Evidence" that we have studied/observed.

[Kyuuketsuki]

Just becuase one does not believe in God does not mean he doesn't exist.

And just because you want it to doesn't mean it does exist either!

Kyu

[kittenshere]

Everything comes from something. If something is unexplanable by every human on earth then it must have came from somewhere just as earth itself did. Earth by the way, did not create itself.

Your statement is completely idiotic. You're saying if something is "unexplainable it must come from somewhere." That statement is kind of "No shit". You then say it must have been created, well created implies a creator so I would disagree.

Unexplained does mean it was created by a creator. It means it's unexplained. You can't say that you have no explanation for something and then that you do because God did it. It's an oxymoron. If you can't explain something, you can't explain it. So stop trying to explain it.

no, im saying everything whether it can be explained or not has a CAUSE. if you cannot find the cuase you then say well I dont know. There would be no logic at all in sayng oh it just happend there is no cuase. That would be a completely retarded thing to say.

[Darwinian]

The idea that everything has a cause became very popular after Newtonian physics came along. The universe seemed to work like clockwork where everything was orderly and followed cause and effect.

Then Einstein and quantum physics came along and we learned that the very fundamental smallest building blocks have very strange rules and the universe is not so orderly. And cause and effect do not necessarily follow.

In quantum physics there are many cases where the effect comes before the cause. For example, it may seem that a vacuum is devoid of all matter but close study shows that particles are winking into existence and out again for no apparent reason. What happens here is that two particles with opposite mass simply appear from nowhere, hang around for a while to what's going on and then promptly annihilate each other. They actually 'borrow' energy from their future in order to exist in their past. A sort of effect then cause. (Unless there's a black hole nearby but will go into Hawking's radiation another day)

So basically this idea you have that everything must have a cause, whilst seeming logical, is not actually correct.

[Kyuuketsuki]

no, im saying everything whether it can be explained or not has a CAUSE. if you cannot find the cuase you then say well I dont know. There would be no logic at all in sayng oh it just happend there is no cuase. That would be a completely retarded thing to say.

Maybe the universe (multiverse, whatever) does have a cause but here's the thing ... if you are arguing that the universe had to have a cause and that cause was your god then my counter argument would be, "Who created your god?" Oh I know you will subsequently claim that your god is uncaused in which case I will simply counter with, "So is the universe!" ... ultimately you are back to faith again and faith proves fuck all!

Kyu