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What things are bad in Islam?
#31
RE: What things are bad in Islam?
Quote:The verse says “Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth”.
My question to you brother. Does this verse stop here? No it doesnt. It continues and gives the actual reason as to the fighting. This is the continuation: – “until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued”.

my question to you my brother is, did i say the verse ended it at that point? no.
did i actually quote the entire verse just like you did? yes
that was my actual point, the latter part of the verse is just as bad because its saying fight them until they pay protection tax.


Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.

Impersonation is treason.





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#32
RE: What things are bad in Islam?
(January 20, 2013 at 2:53 pm)ThatMuslimGuy Wrote: Surah 5:51. This question was raised and has been answered by a scholar(Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi) who graduated from Medina University in the field of Arabic and Islamic Studies. It reads:

Interesting article.

I came across this article on the BBC website which includes the rules of warfare. Do you know if they are correct?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/...ad_1.shtml
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#33
RE: What things are bad in Islam?
Quote:I came across this article on the BBC website which includes the rules of warfare. Do you know if they are correct?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/...ad_1.shtml

if those are the same jihad tactics used by muhammed and his followers i can think of a few good tactics to defeat any muslim army.

have soldiers comprised only of women since they are forbidden to be hurt ever, hide inprivate property whenever you feel threatened by bombs.


Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.

Impersonation is treason.





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#34
RE: What things are bad in Islam?
There are no rules in warfare. I think people should know this by now...

Quote:Inter arma enim silent leges
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#35
RE: What things are bad in Islam?
(January 20, 2013 at 4:49 pm)LastPoet Wrote: There are no rules in warfare. I think people should know this by now...

Depends who your fighting for these days.
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#36
RE: What things are bad in Islam?
Its all shit

Hadith 1:23


Honest :/
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#37
RE: What things are bad in Islam?
(January 20, 2013 at 3:46 pm)killybob Wrote: @ThatMuslimGuy and paulpablo
You write way too much. I greatly respect those who actually read your points before responding to them, as I bet even Allah would bore himself to tears trying to plough through that wall of text. Please try to make your arguments more concise. It will save you, as well as a great many others, a lot of time, and your point will be all the more poignant.
I'm sure that was a good argument you made there, but I for one COULD NOT BE FUCKED TO READ IT.

sorry to be a little insulting, but I just don't have time to read massive walls of text all day long, and I do want to be a part of the argument.

I think you'd be greatly disappointed with what remains after you remove all the fluff, irrelevancies and nonsense. For instance, that wall of text on the first sura he defended amounts to a bare assertion that it means patron rather than friend, followed by some more bare assertion in the guise of some other Muslims attempting to pretend they knew what the mind of God was in dictating the term.

At least Drich's arguments have some meat on them.


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#38
RE: What things are bad in Islam?
(January 20, 2013 at 4:49 pm)LastPoet Wrote: There are no rules in warfare. I think people should know this by now...

This doesn't stop people from trying to devise rules of war. The Geneva Conventions include rules for modern warfare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions

The following article gives more details about the laws of war with a few examples from the past.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_war

Making rules is one thing and what actually happens during a war is usually another, of course.
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#39
RE: What things are bad in Islam?
(January 20, 2013 at 3:43 pm)paulpablo Wrote:
(January 20, 2013 at 2:53 pm)ThatMuslimGuy Wrote:


ah ok so friend doesnt mean friend
fight doesnt mean with physical violence
protection tax doesnt mean extort people who have a different religion
beat doesnt mean beat either or it does mean beat but with a toothbrush
you do know that jizyah isnt just normal tax which applied to everyone? it was specific tax for a non muslim to pay

Quote:Neither India, nor US or Britain are Islamic states. So to put this verse as an excuse for what happened there only shows how biased, unknowledgable and unfair the media is and it hurts us deeply.
what happened there? what happened in india britain and the US?
i dont know why youre making this point, i dont think anyone is saying these places are islamic states, in fact are there any islamic states?
i think if i pointed out any to you and showed you how backwards their laws are you would claim they arent islamic states anyway.

my point is fighting people until they pay protection tax because they dont believe the same thing as you is wrong thats all.

also if you think theres nothing wrong in believing that people who believe different to you will burn in hell forever thats where me and you also differ.

The scholar in Arabic explained the meaning of the word.
The article stated fight can mean physically and non-physically.
The article explained that jizya tax is for non-muslims.
The tax provides protection and rights for non-muslims.

(January 20, 2013 at 3:46 pm)killybob Wrote: @ThatMuslimGuy and paulpablo
You write way too much. I greatly respect those who actually read your points before responding to them, as I bet even Allah would bore himself to tears trying to plough through that wall of text. Please try to make your arguments more concise. It will save you, as well as a great many others, a lot of time, and your point will be all the more poignant.
I'm sure that was a good argument you made there, but I for one COULD NOT BE FUCKED TO READ IT.

sorry to be a little insulting, but I just don't have time to read massive walls of text all day long, and I do want to be a part of the argument.

Lol. I dont blame you it was massively long. I will try and make my post shorter.

(January 20, 2013 at 3:49 pm)paulpablo Wrote:
Quote:The verse says “Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth”.
My question to you brother. Does this verse stop here? No it doesnt. It continues and gives the actual reason as to the fighting. This is the continuation: – “until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued”.

my question to you my brother is, did i say the verse ended it at that point? no.
did i actually quote the entire verse just like you did? yes
that was my actual point, the latter part of the verse is just as bad because its saying fight them until they pay protection tax.

I explained this is from an article. Not what i typed.

Oh Ok well in that case i accept your problem with the verse.

(January 20, 2013 at 3:54 pm)Confused Ape Wrote:
(January 20, 2013 at 2:53 pm)ThatMuslimGuy Wrote: Surah 5:51. This question was raised and has been answered by a scholar(Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi) who graduated from Medina University in the field of Arabic and Islamic Studies. It reads:

Interesting article.

I came across this article on the BBC website which includes the rules of warfare. Do you know if they are correct?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/...ad_1.shtml

Yep the rules listed:
The opponent must always have started the fighting.
It must not be fought to gain territory.
It must be launched by a religious leader.
It must be fought to bring about good - something that Allah will approve of.
Every other way of solving the problem must be tried before resorting to war.
Innocent people should not be killed.
Women, children, or old people should not be killed or hurt.
Women must not be raped.
Enemies must be treated with justice.
Wounded enemy soldiers must be treated in exactly the same way as one's own soldiers.
The war must stop as soon as the enemy asks for peace.
Property must not be damaged.
Poisoning wells is forbidden. The modern analogy would be chemical or biological warfare.

are correct plus many others such as cannot hurt religious people such as monks.

(January 20, 2013 at 4:56 pm)5thHorseman Wrote: Its all shit

Hadith 1:23


Honest :/

Is this a reference to a ahadith? May i have the hadith collection, volume number(if it has one), book number and ahadith number.

(January 20, 2013 at 5:03 pm)apophenia Wrote:
(January 20, 2013 at 3:46 pm)killybob Wrote: @ThatMuslimGuy and paulpablo
You write way too much. I greatly respect those who actually read your points before responding to them, as I bet even Allah would bore himself to tears trying to plough through that wall of text. Please try to make your arguments more concise. It will save you, as well as a great many others, a lot of time, and your point will be all the more poignant.
I'm sure that was a good argument you made there, but I for one COULD NOT BE FUCKED TO READ IT.

sorry to be a little insulting, but I just don't have time to read massive walls of text all day long, and I do want to be a part of the argument.

I think you'd be greatly disappointed with what remains after you remove all the fluff, irrelevancies and nonsense. For instance, that wall of text on the first sura he defended amounts to a bare assertion that it means patron rather than friend, followed by some more bare assertion in the guise of some other Muslims attempting to pretend they knew what the mind of God was in dictating the term.

At least Drich's arguments have some meat on them.



How is it a bare assumption when the scholar who studied at the best Arabic and Islamic university in the world and who graduated in Arabic explains the word used in the Qur'an. If your not gonna accept someone who knows Arabic fluently i might as well stop here.

(January 20, 2013 at 4:47 pm)paulpablo Wrote:
Quote:I came across this article on the BBC website which includes the rules of warfare. Do you know if they are correct?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/...ad_1.shtml

if those are the same jihad tactics used by muhammed and his followers i can think of a few good tactics to defeat any muslim army.

have soldiers comprised only of women since they are forbidden to be hurt ever, hide inprivate property whenever you feel threatened by bombs.

Yep. You would destroy the Army.
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#40
RE: What things are bad in Islam?
(January 20, 2013 at 5:29 pm)ThatMuslimGuy Wrote:
(January 20, 2013 at 5:03 pm)apophenia Wrote: I think you'd be greatly disappointed with what remains after you remove all the fluff, irrelevancies and nonsense. For instance, that wall of text on the first sura he defended amounts to a bare assertion that it means patron rather than friend, followed by some more bare assertion in the guise of some other Muslims attempting to pretend they knew what the mind of God was in dictating the term.

How is it a bare assumption when the scholar who studied at the best Arabic and Islamic university in the world and who graduated in Arabic explains the word used in the Qur'an. If your not gonna accept someone who knows Arabic fluently i might as well stop here.

It's a bare assertion because the "scholar" in question, while acknowledging multiple meanings for the word, claims it means X instead of Y in the passage without giving any reason for the preference. That makes it a bare assertion, and any supposed credentials regarding his schooling and his knowledge of Arabic are irrelevant to the point. If you can't hack it, perhaps you should leave. I'm not overly impressed by the bare assertions of fellow kool-aid drinkers.

Quote:The correct translation of the word ""wali"" is not "friend" but it is someone who is very close and intimate. It is also used to mean "guardian, protector, patron, lord and master" ... In the Qur'an this word is used for God ... The same word is also sometimes used in the Qur'an for human beings, such as {....And whosoever is killed unjustly, We have granted his next kin ["wali"] the authority (to seek judgement or punishment in this case)…} (Al-‘Isra' 17 :33)
(emphasis added)


(There is an additional difficulty. Imam Ibn Kathir notes that some scholars suggest that the sura was revealed after the battle of Uhad as a response to some Muslims suggesting they seek shelter among the Jews. Beyond the problem of inferring God's intent, from what I understand, the Quran isn't arranged in chronological order and wasn't collected together until long after its original dissemination, so it's questionable the the "scholars" to which the Imam refers were actually basing this on anything concrete; feel free to demonstrate otherwise.)


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