Before Christianity... before Judaism..

[Zone]

So the Bible would be based on something that did happen historically but then exageratted the **** out of? A bit like how a crashed Soviet Sattelite became the crashed UFO of the Roswell Incident? That seems to make sense, I suppose. Though anyone into that sort of thing would just believe it was a crashed alien spaceship from the start.

[RichardP]

So the Bible would be based on something that did happen historically but then exageratted the **** out of? A bit like how a crashed Soviet Sattelite became the crashed UFO of the Roswell Incident? That seems to make sense, I suppose. Though anyone into that sort of thing would just believe it was a crashed alien spaceship from the start.

You could be into it and argue that even though it was a crashed satellite the incident proved that the government covers up anything having to do with UFO's -- therefore there were probably 'real' UFO's that got covered up.

You could argue that Solomon and Moses and Jesus all existed and got inspiration from "God" -- but didn't perform any miracles -- however you still think that God exists and you hope that there is an afterlife.

Neither assumption is based on any direct evidence though...

[Brian37]

Christianity did not always exist and there are probably parts of the world where it is still unknown. I suppose that the Christians would argue that being a Christian is a bit like being an American -- or a member of a wealthy nation -- you are "lucky" to be born in that country. You are lucky if you were taught Christianity and have a chance at eternal life. People born in the wrong part of the world are unlucky.

I should not make fun of God because "he" has been trying to get it right for a long time now. And he has learned from his early mistakes -- made changes -- and "his" religion has improved. Christianity is sort of the new and improved version of the old Judaism. Old Judaism taught those archaic boring tiresome Ten Commandments that modern day Christians are loathe to learn...

But what came before Judaism? Because god forbid there was even a time when Judaism did not exist. Here's a little thing from Wikipedia that I thought was interesting.

The ancient roots of Judaism lie in the Bronze Age polytheistic Ancient Semitic religions, specifically Canaanite religion, a syncretization with elements of Babylonian religion and of the worship of Yahweh reflected in the early prophetic books of the Hebrew Bible. During the Babylonian captivity of the 6th and 5th centuries BCE, certain circles within the exiled Judahites in Babylon redefined pre-existing ideas about monotheism, election, divine law and Covenant into a theology which came to dominate the former Judah in the following centuries.

From the 5th century BCE until 70 CE, Israelite religion developed into the various theological schools of Second Temple Judaism, besides Hellenistic Judaism in the diaspora. The text of the Hebrew Bible was redacted into its extant form in this period and possibly also canonized as well. The Rabbinic form of Judaism developed during Late Antiquity, during the 3rd to 6th centuries CE; the Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Bible (the addition of vowels to the consonant text) and the Talmud were compiled in this period. The oldest manuscripts of the Masoretic Biblical tradition however come from the 10th and 11th centuries CE; in the form of the Aleppo Codex of the later portions of the 10th century CE and the Leningrad Codex dated to either 1008 CE or 1009 CE. Regarding Rabbinical works, due largely to censoring and burning of manuscripts in medieval Europe, the oldest manuscripts in existence of various Rabbinical works are quite late. For example the oldest complete manuscript copy of the Babylonian Talmud to survive is dated to 1342 CE.[1]

This may help a fence sitter or someone still in a religion but has questions. But hard core believers both Jews and Christians have bullshit excuses to ignore these rightfully stated facts above.

I argued with Jews about the Canaanite influence and they say "It's not the same". Missing the point that life does not exist in a vacuum and they got their ideas and motifs and characters from prior polytheism. Changing the game pieces and color of the box doesn't make the religion original. Jews and Christians refuse to see that the reality is that EVERY religion has always been a spinoff of something prior.

It is the same concept in commercial marketing. Pepsi will come out with a cherry soda, Coke will look at it, come up with it's own version, change the name of the soda and color of the can and compete with Pepsi.

Saying that either the Hebrew or Christian religion are original is like saying Coke was the first beverage because it's can is red. Islam is also a spin off too.

Humans make up religions and that is all that is going on. You might help weak theists or skeptics afraid to leave theism, but hardcore theists will completely ignore reality and make excuses as to why their monotheism did not come from polytheism when it is obvious it did.

---

Religion is successful, not because a god is real, any god, religion is successful because of marketing and gullibility.

[Zone]

So the Bible would be based on something that did happen historically but then exageratted the **** out of? A bit like how a crashed Soviet Sattelite became the crashed UFO of the Roswell Incident? That seems to make sense, I suppose. Though anyone into that sort of thing would just believe it was a crashed alien spaceship from the start.

A crashed alien spaceship would be an extraordinary thing to happen while a crashed Soviet spy craft would be relatively mundane. Mundane events are much more likely than extraordinary events. So if you were being 100% rational you would plump for the mundane unless there is compelling evidence.

You could argue that Solomon and Moses and Jesus all existed and got inspiration from "God" -- but didn't perform any miracles -- however you still think that God exists and you hope that there is an afterlife.

But then they would have nothing particularly to do with any God that may exist and taught about a God that existed only in their own imagination. So they need a supernatural capability to be the real deal.

[RichardP]

Christianity did not always exist and there are probably parts of the world where it is still unknown. I suppose that the Christians would argue that being a Christian is a bit like being an American -- or a member of a wealthy nation -- you are "lucky" to be born in that country. You are lucky if you were taught Christianity and have a chance at eternal life. People born in the wrong part of the world are unlucky.

I should not make fun of God because "he" has been trying to get it right for a long time now. And he has learned from his early mistakes -- made changes -- and "his" religion has improved. Christianity is sort of the new and improved version of the old Judaism. Old Judaism taught those archaic boring tiresome Ten Commandments that modern day Christians are loathe to learn...

But what came before Judaism? Because god forbid there was even a time when Judaism did not exist. Here's a little thing from Wikipedia that I thought was interesting.

The ancient roots of Judaism lie in the Bronze Age polytheistic Ancient Semitic religions, specifically Canaanite religion, a syncretization with elements of Babylonian religion and of the worship of Yahweh reflected in the early prophetic books of the Hebrew Bible. During the Babylonian captivity of the 6th and 5th centuries BCE, certain circles within the exiled Judahites in Babylon redefined pre-existing ideas about monotheism, election, divine law and Covenant into a theology which came to dominate the former Judah in the following centuries.

From the 5th century BCE until 70 CE, Israelite religion developed into the various theological schools of Second Temple Judaism, besides Hellenistic Judaism in the diaspora. The text of the Hebrew Bible was redacted into its extant form in this period and possibly also canonized as well. The Rabbinic form of Judaism developed during Late Antiquity, during the 3rd to 6th centuries CE; the Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Bible (the addition of vowels to the consonant text) and the Talmud were compiled in this period. The oldest manuscripts of the Masoretic Biblical tradition however come from the 10th and 11th centuries CE; in the form of the Aleppo Codex of the later portions of the 10th century CE and the Leningrad Codex dated to either 1008 CE or 1009 CE. Regarding Rabbinical works, due largely to censoring and burning of manuscripts in medieval Europe, the oldest manuscripts in existence of various Rabbinical works are quite late. For example the oldest complete manuscript copy of the Babylonian Talmud to survive is dated to 1342 CE.[1]

This may help a fence sitter or someone still in a religion but has questions. But hard core believers both Jews and Christians have bullshit excuses to ignore these rightfully stated facts above.

I argued with Jews about the Canaanite influence and they say "It's not the same". Missing the point that life does not exist in a vacuum and they got their ideas and motifs and characters from prior polytheism. Changing the game pieces and color of the box doesn't make the religion original. Jews and Christians refuse to see that the reality is that EVERY religion has always been a spinoff of something prior.

It is the same concept in commercial marketing. Pepsi will come out with a cherry soda, Coke will look at it, come up with it's own version, change the name of the soda and color of the can and compete with Pepsi.

Saying that either the Hebrew or Christian religion are original is like saying Coke was the first beverage because it's can is red. Islam is also a spin off too.

Humans make up religions and that is all that is going on. You might help weak theists or skeptics afraid to leave theism, but hardcore theists will completely ignore reality and make excuses as to why their monotheism did not come from polytheism when it is obvious it did.

---

Religion is successful, not because a god is real, any god, religion is successful because of marketing and gullibility.

I think that perhaps this is the reason that some Christians are so determined to argue that the earth is only 10,000 years old. They want to believe that the entire world history is covered by the Bible -- and nothing came before it!

[Brian37]

This may help a fence sitter or someone still in a religion but has questions. But hard core believers both Jews and Christians have bullshit excuses to ignore these rightfully stated facts above.

I argued with Jews about the Canaanite influence and they say "It's not the same". Missing the point that life does not exist in a vacuum and they got their ideas and motifs and characters from prior polytheism. Changing the game pieces and color of the box doesn't make the religion original. Jews and Christians refuse to see that the reality is that EVERY religion has always been a spinoff of something prior.

It is the same concept in commercial marketing. Pepsi will come out with a cherry soda, Coke will look at it, come up with it's own version, change the name of the soda and color of the can and compete with Pepsi.

Saying that either the Hebrew or Christian religion are original is like saying Coke was the first beverage because it's can is red. Islam is also a spin off too.

Humans make up religions and that is all that is going on. You might help weak theists or skeptics afraid to leave theism, but hardcore theists will completely ignore reality and make excuses as to why their monotheism did not come from polytheism when it is obvious it did.

---

Religion is successful, not because a god is real, any god, religion is successful because of marketing and gullibility.

I think that perhaps this is the reason that some Christians are so determined to argue that the earth is only 10,000 years old. They want to believe that the entire world history is covered by the Bible -- and nothing came before it!

Pesky science always puts a damper on fantasy.

[John V]

Jews and Christians refuse to see that the reality is that EVERY religion has always been a spinoff of something prior.

Paul notes in Romans 1:
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

So, from a Biblical POV, some similar motifs are not surprising.

[Brian37]

Jews and Christians refuse to see that the reality is that EVERY religion has always been a spinoff of something prior.

Paul notes in Romans 1:
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

So, from a Biblical POV, some similar motifs are not surprising.

There is absolutely NOTHING new in that passage that has not been a motif in other cultures. Superstitious writings of all sorts of myths always set the writer up to be the upstart victim who merely dared to question, then they write the characters of the "outsiders" as being the bullies, that way they get to look like the oppressed. In psychological terms it's called passive aggressive. From a propaganda standpoint, it is a great way to sell fear and get people to fear change.

Socrates in "The Apology" was also persecuted for questioning the alleged wise people and teachers and government authorities.

There is a huge difference in reality, in being a victim, and pretending to be a victim.

Galileo was a victim, the woman who was burned alive for falsely being accused of being a fictional being(witch) was a victim. Christians and gays and non Shiite Muslims living in Iran are victims.

Being the bully like the religions of Abraham are, and falsely pretending to be the victim, doesn't make them victims.

[RichardP]

Jews and Christians refuse to see that the reality is that EVERY religion has always been a spinoff of something prior.

Paul notes in Romans 1:
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

So, from a Biblical POV, some similar motifs are not surprising.

Isn't it curious that the Bible "ended" once Paul had set up the religion? Other than the Book of Revelation the Bible was "finished". It is old and arguably "outdated".

[John V]

Isn't it curious that the Bible "ended" once Paul had set up the religion?

No.

Other than the Book of Revelation the Bible was "finished".

To my knowledge gJohn and John's epistles are also considered to be wrietten later than Paul.

It is old and arguably "outdated".

Argue it if you like.