Women. You have men by the balls.(...)

[John V]

So I guess that we would expect evolution (as your proposed cause) to result in that difference (whatever it may be)

Did you have trouble with the math, or were you just making stuff up and hoping I wouldn't check it?

To put it a little more simply, if men were shorter and women taller this would result in less oppression.

I'd say weight and strength are more important than height. You probably would too, and so disingenuously used height alone.

[The Grand Nudger]

You maintain your position on the relative difference between males and females, I maintain mine. Regardless of who is correct it will not be support for your statement, unless you can demonstrate that a change in said loci has an effect on the relative level of oppression or subservience. If the difference were greater it would be that much easier to demonstrate the veracity of this claim. Damned if you do, damned if you don't - because you didn't think it through before you chose to get loose at the fingertips. What is so difficult to understand about this?

I'd say it's harder for a fat man to catch a skinny female to beat her in the first place. I'm not the one that focused on these attributes or brought them up in support of an ignorant statement, you did that. So I'm not exactly going to feel beholden to you to simply ignore them now when you clearly realize there's no traction in them.

But hell, we're on to weight. Show me the loci for weight (already touched on this) and how relative weight has a direct effect on levels of oppression or submissiveness. It's the same situation with height all over again and you'll fail here as hard as you failed there. Are you going to claim next that I'm being disingenuous when I focus on weight?

Should we instead retreat to strength? We're at least 1/3 of the way to your total abandonment of the support you have offered for your own dismal statement and I'm wondering why we don't just cut out all the foreplay and go straight to the money-shot.

[John V]

You maintain your position on the relative difference between males and females, I maintain mine. Regardless of who is correct it will not be support for your statement, unless you can demonstrate that a change in said loci has an effect on the relative level of oppression or subservience. What is so difficult to understand about this?

It's not difficult to understand, it's special pleading. Studies in evolution do not necessarily boil down to demonstrating that a change in a certain loci determines the attribute(s) being studied. You know that.

I'd say it's harder for a fat man to catch a skinny female to beat her in the first place. I'm not the one that focused on these attributes or brought them up in support of an ignorant statement, you did that. So I'm not exactly going to feel beholden to you to simply ignore them now when you clearly realize there's no traction in them.

But hell, we're on to weight. Show me the loci for weight (already touched on this) and how relative weight has a direct effect on levels of oppression or submissiveness. It's the same situation with height all over again and you'll fail here as hard as you failed there. Are you going to claim next that I'm being disingenuous when I focus on weight?

I'll claim you're being disingenuous in asking for "the loci for weight" and its direct effect on levels of oppression. Actually testosterone levels influence both muscle mass and aggression, but I don't care to look up the loci for testosterone levels, if such exists and is known.

Anyway, I'm satisfied with my argument. Take the last word. I'm done on this part of it, unless something new is brought in.

Hopefully luckie will reply to my response, as that should be more interesting.

[The Grand Nudger]

It's not difficult to understand, it's special pleading. Studies in evolution do not necessarily boil down to demonstrating that a change in a certain loci determines the attribute(s) being studied. You know that.

Except that we're not talking about studies in evolution, we're talking about your unfortunate statement and the utter lack of support you've been able to manage for it. Should I link it again for you?

I'll claim you're being disingenuous in asking for "the loci for weight" and its direct effect on levels of oppression. Actually testosterone levels influence both muscle mass and aggression, but I don't care to look up the loci for testosterone levels, if such exists and is known.

Ah, okay, so we skipped some steps and we're now 3/3rds of the way to abandonment - but we've entered the bonus round. Testosterone?

Anyway, I'm satisfied with my argument. Take the last word. I'm done on this part of it, unless something new is brought in.

What argument? I saw a statement made in absence of fact or understanding pages and pages ago and I've been waiting for the argument since.

[Mystical]

Sorry it took me a bit to reply JohnV, I'm on chemo treatments so I take each day one at a time.

1. If she wanted to be a preacher, would you be by her side in that endeavor?
No.

No, why? Since you didn't specify I'm going to go ahead and put my next point in here, Have you ever heard about Joyce Meyer's Ministries?
Growing up, it was frowned upon that she 'dared' preach. She's been dis-communicated from her own church as a result of her endeavors. Still, she's been able to do the following which I feel is worth far more to the credit of her religion than speaking when told she shouldn't be. I always respected her husband highly. Despite verses such as this she still teaches, and I respect her too for overcoming the sexism of her religion.

Corinthians 14:34-35
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (I
Timothy 2:11
Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

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Share the Word of God to over 37 different countries through Joyce's conferences
House, feed and educate abandoned children in countries like India, Myanmar and Cambodia through our 39 children's homes
Donate more than $11 million to worldwide disaster relief efforts
Feed more than 69,000 children around the world every day
Care for, feed and educate 25 children and 21 former prostitutes through the Transformation Center in India
Care for, feed and educate 31 former prostitutes at our Ethiopian women's home
Operate 14 international offices
Provide over 1 million patients with medical care through our short-term and long-term worldwide medical and dental outreaches
Fully fund hospitals in Chandrakal, India, and Pursat, Cambodia, that offer free medical care
Give 2.4 million hygiene gift bags to prisoners around the world and witness over 100,000 salvations
Reach thousands of disadvantaged children and families every year through the St. Louis Dream Center and other inner-city outreaches around the world
Broadcast the Enjoying Everyday Life® television program in 61 different languages
Dig over 550 freshwater wells around the world

GAL 3: 28
There is neither Jew nor Greek,
there is neither bond nor free, there is neither
male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

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2. Is she your advisor yet you're the final word on the matter?
Yes.

What if she disagrees with your judgement? What if your judgement is wrong? It happens, you know

Here's what the Bible says to do in such a case:

"If she go not as thou wouldest have her, cut her off from thy flesh, and give her a bill of divorce, and let her go." (Eccles. 25: 26)

Then it gives an answer but is it not foolish for a wife to let her husband continue down a path she knows is wrong, in silence?

1 Peter 3:1
Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives,when they see your respectful and pure conduct.

Not every argument can be waited out in respectful pure conduct, sometimes decisions need to be made immediately. What is she to do if she disagrees with you? Answer: be silent. Right?
I've heard these thrown in a debate of this very nature before:

Proverbs 14:1
The wisest of women builds her house, but folly with her own hands tears it down.
Philippians 2:3
Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
Ephesians 5:24
Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
Seeing as how the definition of rivalry can even be debated between two people, this is not helpful either.
[/hide]

3. Do you really think women's place is in the kitchen or making babies? (you didn't answer me directly on that one, either)
Actually I'm the better cook, but she's catching up. As for babies, well, yeah, unless you want the race to die out.

How would the race die out? I'm not saying women should not make babies, I'm saying that the only place for a woman is where she wants to be, and if it isn't in the kitchen so be it. Opposite of what the Bible says on the matter, no? Of which you agree with yes?

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Deuteronomy 22:5
Women shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.
Titus 2:1-15
They are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled..
Colossians 3:18
Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

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According to the US Census Bureau, there are 66.3 million fathers in the United States today.
(Click here for more statistics about fathers who are not stay-at-home.)
US Census Bureau
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/...s_for_feat...

There are an estimated 105,000 “stay-at-home” dads. These are married fathers with children under 15 who are not in the labor force primarily so they can care for family members while their wives work outside the home. Stay-at-home dads care for 189,000 children.
US Census Bureau
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/...dren/00112...

There are 2 million preschoolers whose fathers care for them more hours than any other child-care provider while their mothers are at work. This is a ratio of about 1-in-5 preschoolers of employed mothers.
US Census Bureau
http://www.census.gov/population/www/soc...l-168.html

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4. If she ran for congress would you have any objections?
Yes, seems like it would be a big waste of time as she's never held office of any kind.

Fair enough. Soooo if she was competent and able to hold office, would you object? Or do you agree with Paul and Timothy on the subject?
I am coming to the belief that you are a moderate when it comes to the bible, but you are by far in the minority then.

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1 Tim. 2:12-14
I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man.
1 Tim. 2:15
"But women will be saved through childbearing."
I Corinthians 14:34-35
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

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5. If she bought land would you feel she was out of her realm?
No. You're showing your ignorance of the Bible with that one:
Prov 31
16 She considers a field and buys it;
From her profits she plants a vineyard.

Fair enough, you got me there. I merely quoted a religious persons personal opinion on subject I guess.

6. Do you hold scorn for women in general for man's Fall?
No. The Bible holds Adam responsible, so why would I?

I ask because these verses have been thrown in my face my entire life

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"Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die." (Eccles. 25:22)
I Timothy 2:11-14
"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3)
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;

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7. Do you feel women are inept and require men to keep them on the right path? No.

The bible seems to contradict your beliefs, and is it not the living word of god in your eyes? Or do you concede that it is written by fallible men and that you need to temper that knowledge with what you believe from the Bible?

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"For from garments cometh a moth, and from women wickedness. Better is the churlishness of a man than a courteous woman, a woman, I say, which bringeth shame and reproach." (Eccles. 42:13-14)
"The whoredom of a woman may be known in her haughty looks and eyelids. If thy daughter be shameless, keep her in straitly, lest she abuse herself through overmuch liberty." (Eccles. 26:9-10)
"I find more bitter than death the woman who is a snare, whose heart is a trap and whose hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but the sinner she will ensnare."
Ecclesiastes 7:26-28
"A man is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man." (1 Cor. 11:7)
"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything." (Ephesians 5:22-24)
Col 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
"A silent and loving woman is a gift of the Lord: and there is nothing so much worth as a mind well instructed. A shamefaced and faithful woman is a double grace, and her continent mind cannot be valued." (Eccles. 26:14-15)
"A shameless woman shall be counted as a dog; but she that is shamefaced will fear the Lord." (Eccles.26:25)

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8. Do you believe that if she divorced you she's going to hell?
No.

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Romans 7:1-25
For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive.
Hebrews 13:4
Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.
1 Corinthians 7:39
A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.

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Perhaps not you, but others agree that these verses mean that should she divorce her husband that makes her an adulterer. This is the paramount reason why I have seen religious women stay in abusive marriages. Because in the Bible, adulterers have a special place in hell.

9. Do you agree or disagree with the bible regarding these claims? And if so how does that translate to your marriage?

I agree with them. So does my wife.

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Matt 22
23 The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, 24 saying: “Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 25 Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. 27 Last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God[b] in heaven.

She adores me so much she's actually a little apprehensive regarding heaven, because she can't imagine life without me. Pretty sweet.

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[fr0d0]

Can I just mention... My old church: the salvation army has had women preachers since the 1880s. They've also had women leaders of the church. I think there's also some odd ruling (that I don't understand I mean) that a woman preacher/leader has to be unmarried or a joint leader with her husband if she is... That may have changed.

[Mystical]

Can I just mention... My old church: the salvation army has had women preachers since the 1880s. They've also had women leaders of the church. I think there's also some odd ruling (that I don't understand I mean) that a woman preacher/leader has to be unmarried or a joint leader with her husband if she is... That may have changed.

Did the men preachers have to be unmarried or in a joint leadership with another man?

[fr0d0]

No lol. That's the problem. I think it's 'encouraged' that preachers come in pairs with other preachers. Married couples train to be preachers. My first church had two women preachers.

[Mystical]

Women preachers are not welcome everywhere though, sadly. Not to mention women pastors.
I had a doctor and she ran a practice with her husband. If she wanted to go work somewhere else she could, but in the religious world she would be limited to where she was without her husband accompanying her.

[fr0d0]

No no indeed. Women in my church have been fighting that for over 100 years. I saw my preachers challenged on the street for it.