do religious people really believe?

[fr0d0]

Love makes you do foolish things, it's true. I have responsibilities and letting my own kids die would be irresponsible. Not trusting in modern medicine would be irresponsible too.

How do you know what God has planned for you? This is something you'd need to find out. Most people don't get the opportunity to abandon their lives.

And what is the point if your theoretical faith? Mine is maximised potential. If that is through self sacrifice alone, then that's for me to do. One thing we can't do is to dictate to others what their destiny should be.

If I am being right as a Christian, I would never say that there is definitely a heaven. I believe through faith. It's a very different position.

[paulpablo]

And what is the point if your theoretical faith?

I assume you mean "of" my theoretical faith?
Theres no point in my faith, its either there or it isnt i dont believe in things for a purpose, i can change my way of thinking to increase potential and have more faith in myself for a purpose i suppose, for example at the gym or in a job interview i like to think possitive. But this definitely does not extend to believing beings or places exist or not for a purpose, if someone dies who i know i cant just force myself to think "right well ill just believe heaven exists now that should help me out"
And i still stand by the idea that having faith for the pure purpose to defeat the doubts seems illogical to me.
But if you say you wont give away most your money and you care about the deaths of children because you have children and i assume you have a wife aswell and you dont know if there is definitely a heaven then thats a fair enough answer.
My point really still stands though about the religious people who do cry over the deaths of children and who live life pretty much in luxury and who do all the other many things i just simply wouldnt do if i believed in heaven.
I can tell you now if i believed in heaven id give my money away and id probably have no hands or eyes right now since i think it was jesus who said if you think your hand is going to cause actions to prevent you entering heaven you should chop it off, and my hands and eyes definitely cause me to do lustful things that would prevent me getting into heaven. I would just chop my balls off but then id be spilling mans seed onto the earth.

[EGross]

Some religious people selectively believe, while filing away the "hard stuff" (like the Noah story) under "I will never understand it, so I have faith that it must be true. And don't ask me to talk about it, because it bothers me too." (Hey, it sort of rhymes!) So if you ask some Catholics if they believe in the Virgin brith, there are some who sort of get embarassed about it and want to move on. Ask Orthodox Jews about the requirement to kill any Amalakite today, and many will express deep concern abotu it and hope that one day God will take back that requirement, and luckily we cannot see who is an Amalakit, and maybe we won't need to kill them...hoping..." And I have spoken to muslims about this getting of virgins thing when you are dead, and not all of them are comfortable with that either. And they reject the idea of male virgins!

So when you come right down to it, if you do not think about the problems with your faith, and if you rely on others to think for you, and if you are zealous in your dogma, then you never have a problem. But once you start to actually think, then the degree that you have a problem and have a faith crisis is related to the amount of thinking, clear thinking, about the stuff that people are telling you is true.

[fr0d0]

@Paul:

Faith and doubt are necessarily twinned. You don't get one without the other. That's just the way it is.

Yes I agree with you that to be good enough is impossible for us. That's why we needed that paying for us. You can have a clean sheet.

You're aims are admirable though. And I tip my hat to you Sir.

---

So when you come right down to it, if you do not think about the problems with your faith

Haha! I love how you miss out those who understand their faith, rather than rely heavily on expert advice. And slyly imply that actually understanding it isn't even an option.

Do you understand fully any scientific theory? Would you condemn those that take expert advice? Are there any theories you would adhere to without fully understanding every detail yourself?

[EGross]

So when you come right down to it, if you do not think about the problems with your faith

Haha! I love how you miss out those who understand their faith, rather than rely heavily on expert advice. And slyly imply that actually understanding it isn't even an option.

Do you understand fully any scientific theory? Would you condemn those that take expert advice? Are there any theories you would adhere to without fully understanding every detail yourself?

You cannot compare who a dogmatic person seeks to validate his belief with a scientist who seeks to have someone disprove his theory, or validate it with the inability to disprove it. Well, you did, bit it is not the same.

And because of the community where I live, I was relating to it in the following way: You are lacking faith that the earth is 6000 years old. You have reviewed the scientific data and it contradicts your belief. So you go to your Rabbi (here) or whatever and speak of your crisis. His job is not to validate the truth, but to strengthen your faith. And because of his position of authority, you rely on that, and the typical "nobody knows how long a day is without a sun" or some nonsense like that might be all that is needed.

In a scientific world, you might have doubts that a specific theory applies to a project that you are working on. You go to experts in the field, and they may or may not say "Yeah, it doesn't work" and they might give other suggestions, or maybe not. But they are not committed to a dogma that this theory must be true, and neither is the person who doubts it. In fact he can chuck it out the window and still be a scientist in his particular field. The man with a religious dogma issue, if he chucks that out the window, everyting else evaporates ("Yeah, you are right, this entire young earth thing doesn't pan out at all.")

Religious people like to sometimes see themselves like they are doing some sort of scientific methodology, but they cannot due to the fact that dogma removes that possibility from their lives.

[Nobody]

I think those who claim to believe do so largely because they're afraid not to.

Back in the ancient times when heretics and apostates were burned at the stake, the penetant watching were told it was to cleanse the victims of their sins. This way they'd not suffer the eternal flaming ravages of Hell, having had that what condemned them to that fate burned away while alive here on earth.

Watching that spectacle of carnage would tend to stick with a person. Obey or else this will be you.

I think it's largely what's responsible, along with the crusades that slaughtered the competition, for manifesting the 'meme' Dawkins refers to.

A person has to set aside the intellect in order to accept something unseen, with no proof it exists but that of man made fictions promising it does, not only cares about the human condition but is so egoistic and prideful that it cares how lesser beings feel about it.

And when displeased it does bad things like, according to Pat Robertson and the now very surprised Reverend Jerry Falwell, allowing September 11th to occur. Because America has fallen away from obeying malevolence in Heaven and so it let's Malevolence on earth teach us a lesson....

Because it loves us.

[WinterHold]

I really believe to a point I can feel heaven & hell not shit.

The thing is, sometimes you pray for god & god answers ; as simple as that. All -and many- Muslims have doubts, but sometimes certain things happen that make you really believe. You can't feel what I feel after a prayer, me ? all fear, pain, rage, anger, depression, all of it just goes away. The prayers made me a better person in many ways, believe it or not.

Religious people do believe, OP. The reason why we stay believing, is because we feel that thing ; I don't know how to describe it : ) many of us don't even pray, a lot others are not even thinking about religion. But go & ask them.. many of them felt it once.

It's also the cycle of life it makes total sense now, which also makes many muslims believe even more.. the pattern that many people fail to get or conclude..

stuff like that do make us "really believe"

[fr0d0]

Religious people like to sometimes see themselves like they are doing some sort of scientific methodology, but they cannot due to the fact that dogma removes that possibility from their lives.

There are crazy scientists too.. Those with marginal theories that the majority regard as crazies.

So it is with theology. YEC is just as unsupportable. I still regard those people as siblings in Christ, even given their mistakes. People like Fred Phelps, I'd have a very hard time accepting.

You do theology a disservice trying to divorce it from its rational basis. Sure mistakes are made all the time. This is more proof of its freedom to fail. A good thing when talking about dogma.

[Angrboda]

I've been wanting to address this thread, but my thoughts on the matter have yet to coalesce, so what I have for now is at best partial.

I hope the good Lord will strike me down if I appear to be supporting fr0d0 in any way, but allow me to wax poetical a moment. (Someone spot me on this.) I'd say that faith is the walk, not the destination. Faith is the process, not the result of a process. It is a continual dialectic between trust and doubt. In a sense, love is a similar dialectic in which we continual extend ourselves, risking to trust someone in the absence of any surety that one's faith will be rewarded. (And if I may suggest an aside, regardless of the merits of belief itself, the process of faith and doubt, that dialectic, is ultimately, imo, a character building one. [As a Taoist, virtue based or "character based" ethics are an important component of my beliefs.])

Now, as to the main subject of the thread, I have but pitifully little to offer other than what is at present a largely incompletely formed feeling. Something I've pointed out before is that both theists and non-theist seem to be behaving hypocritically with respect to what they believe, as viewed by the other camp. Atheists as noted here suggest that theist's behavior seems at odds with the plain meaning of their beliefs. Theists on the other hand, look at people who seem to claim that there is no objective meaning or morals in the universe, and wonder why atheists seem to behave, for all intents and purposes, as if there is. I think at bottom, both sides — beyond the potential mischaracterizing of the other — are neglecting that there is a human nature which supersedes and has priority above one's nature as an atheist or a theist, and both miss this more fundamental ground in focusing on the matters of theistic belief. Ultimately, I think belief itself is the wrong lens to look through if you want to understand human behavior. If that's the case, then attempting to paint a person's behavior as primarily a result of their beliefs in this or that sphere is ultimately going to result in an unintelligible image, regardless of how careful you are in the construction.

Anyway, again, this is just a partial and somewhat ill defined stab. Perhaps I'll be able to produce a more coherent statement later; perhaps not.

FWIW. YMMV. IANAL. TINSTAAFL.

[paulpablo]

apophenia, im not ignoring human nature, i know theists are behaving out of human nature when they cry because children die or they hoard money and so on. And as an atheist i dont act hypocritical by behaving well, i just do it because it either feels good or it benefits me, apart from when im not behaving well that is.
Im hypocritical as an atheist in other ways, the other day i prayed to my mp3 player to help me find it, i actually said out loud "please mp3 player be around here somewhere" but this is again just my nature because ive been raised in a culture where people do pray.
My point is everyday i do things against my animal nature because of the belief i have in things.
i believe that eating veg and eggs are good for me but id much rather stuff my face with mcdonalds, but i never do because of my beliefs which are way stronger than my animal instincts to stuff my face with fat.
Theres countless things i do because of my beliefs that outweigh my animal instincts, i dont grab random girls in the street and fuck them, i dont kill my bosses, i work, i go to the gym, i dont take drugs or smoke, i sometimes use condoms.
I do these things for relatively unimportant causes in comparison to the infinitely important cause of the well being of the soul which supposedly exists , because of fitness or because i dont want to be arrested or cause distress to the female population by grabbing them and fucking them, all relatively unimportant puroposes in comparison to the everlasting life and soul that theists believe in, again if i REALLY REALLY REALLY believed in a heaven and a soul i would give away most my money, id never bother to masterbate, id be jelous of a child with incurable cancer because they would be getting to paradise before me but then id have to pray to god to forgive me for that because you arent allowed to be jelous if i remember right, id never be sad at a funeral, use gods name in vain and so on if there was something of everlasting important at stake, its logical that it just wouldnt be worth it, yet no one but people who are labeled as maniacs behave this way,
who would feel lucky and that god wanted them to join them that little bit sooner than usual if they had cancer or HIV? religious or unreligious how many people think "YES! im on my way god" when getting a terminal illness.