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do religious people really believe?
#11
RE: do religious people really believe?
#2.
Nummmberrrr two.

Well, I can't seem to remember what number 2 is anymore, it's been a long nightWink Something to do with mountains not moving..and god being a jerkface.. Ah well, here's a little jig to distract youTongue

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co6-tYS9k1U

FrOdo Wrote:If you can tear yourself away from dominating Esq for a moment!

Maybe you do have some prophesy powers after all Wink

Esquilax Wrote:Hell, a doctor- an actual educated and trained professional- would be a much more impressive instrument for divinity

Quote:There are some Christians who believe that seeking medical attention is demonstrating a lack of faith in God. In the Word-Faith movement, consulting a doctor is often considered a lack of faith that will actually prevent God from healing you. In groups such as Christian Science, seeking the help of physicians is sometimes viewed as a barrier to using the spiritual energy God has given us to heal ourselves. Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Christians-g...z2LpKpbQb3

We went first to the doctors. When it was established that my rare disease was incureable and I was not responding to treatments (the doctors were giving me the wrong ones to see if they could make a point for the medical journals), that's when I a young 19yr old, listened to these religious based types of arguments: that doctors are just playing god, that god created us and thus can heal us at any moment, the faith of a child can move a mountain, etc etc. I do recall these very verses being quoted to me regarding refusal of treatment:

Quote:“In the thirty-ninth year of his reign Asa was afflicted with a disease in his feet. Though his disease was severe, even in his illness he did not seek help from the LORD, but only from the physicians.” The issue was not that Asa consulted physicians, but that “he did not seek help from the LORD.”

Conclusion drawn out for me: Even when visiting a doctor, our ultimate faith is to be in God, not the doctor. Since I was on such invasive treatments such as cytoxan (mustard seed derivitive btw Frodo!Big Grin), I could've been healed already and not know it, or I could be impeding on god's healing of my body with the drugs.
Quote:Mark 5:25-30 relates the story of a woman who had trouble with continual bleeding, a problem that physicians could not heal even though she had been to many of them and had spent all of her money. Coming to Jesus, she thought that if she but touched the hem of His garment, she would be healed; she did touch His hem, and she was healed.

Conclusion proposed: doctors might try to play god but only god can heal me and I must give him every opportunity to do so. Including having ultimate faith in his healing ability by refusing earthly intrusions.

When medical intervention failed me, faith is all I had left to turn to. Sad but true. Sad
If I were to create self aware beings knowing fully what they would do in their lifetimes, I sure wouldn't create a HELL for the majority of them to live in infinitely! That's not Love, that's sadistic. Therefore a truly loving god does not exist!

Quote:The sin is against an infinite being (God) unforgiven infinitely, therefore the punishment is infinite.

Dead wrong.  The actions of a finite being measured against an infinite one are infinitesimal and therefore merit infinitesimal punishment.

Quote:Some people deserve hell.

I say again:  No exceptions.  Punishment should be equal to the crime, not in excess of it.  As soon as the punishment is greater than the crime, the punisher is in the wrong.

[Image: tumblr_n1j4lmACk61qchtw3o1_500.gif]
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#12
RE: do religious people really believe?
Quote:When medical intervention failed me, faith is all I had left to turn to. Sad but true. Sad

is anyone else getting all the metallica references here, "sad but true", and the song "the god that failed" is about metallicas front mans mother refusing medical intervention then dying.


Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.

Impersonation is treason.





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#13
RE: do religious people really believe?
Lol I don't listen to Metallica Tongue
If I were to create self aware beings knowing fully what they would do in their lifetimes, I sure wouldn't create a HELL for the majority of them to live in infinitely! That's not Love, that's sadistic. Therefore a truly loving god does not exist!

Quote:The sin is against an infinite being (God) unforgiven infinitely, therefore the punishment is infinite.

Dead wrong.  The actions of a finite being measured against an infinite one are infinitesimal and therefore merit infinitesimal punishment.

Quote:Some people deserve hell.

I say again:  No exceptions.  Punishment should be equal to the crime, not in excess of it.  As soon as the punishment is greater than the crime, the punisher is in the wrong.

[Image: tumblr_n1j4lmACk61qchtw3o1_500.gif]
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#14
RE: do religious people really believe?
(February 24, 2013 at 10:44 am)paulpablo Wrote: Frodo you do know that faith is confidence in something and doubt is not having confidence in something, so youre basically saying "i dont have confidence in my religion so its a good job i have confidence in it." or "without lack of confidence in my religion i wouldnt need confidence in my religion"

That's the point I was making, yes.

The illustration demonstrates the nature if faith. Even with our intellectual assent and then trust, we're still crippled by our natures.
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#15
RE: do religious people really believe?
Quote:Of course. Without doubt I wouldn't need faith.

Frodo just by saying this you strike me as someone who doesnt really believe in god yourself.

In what other decision making process in deciding what to believe would anyone use this logic?

If you had a house built for you and someone asked you "do you think the builders did a good job, the house looks dangerous" i doubt anyone would say "well if i didnt have my doubts about the builders i wouldnt need to have faith in the builders"
Why do you have faith just to combat doubt? and why is there a need for the faith to be there? surely you have the faith based on a decision you dont just have the faith there for the sole purpose of defeating the doubt.


Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.

Impersonation is treason.





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#16
RE: do religious people really believe?
Doubt is also a good tool. We should be suspicious and test rather than blindly accept. Faith in anything is based on our best understanding of it.

We might come to trust that the chair we always use won't collapse under us. With God we can only rely on our correct understanding. Besides, it's written into Christianity to test for the truth. As it's a continual process rather than a one off choice, doubt and faith are major players.
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#17
RE: do religious people really believe?
(February 24, 2013 at 11:35 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Doubt is also a good tool. We should be suspicious and test rather than blindly accept. Faith in anything is based on our best understanding of it.

We might come to trust that the chair we always use won't collapse under us. With God we can only rely on our correct understanding. Besides, it's written into Christianity to test for the truth. As it's a continual process rather than a one off choice, doubt and faith are major players.

well normally id say insiginificant claims require little evidence and huge soul saving outlandish unbelievable claims require lots and lots of evidence

but your opinion is that day to day claims require evidence where as outlandish soul saving claims require more faith to combat the doubt and less evidence?


Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.

Impersonation is treason.





Reply
#18
RE: do religious people really believe?
You don't seem to know what faith is, with respect Paul.

To have faith, according to the Xtian tradition, you must have information that you accept to be true. You must trust that information, and you must then also act upon it. With all three, you can then say that you have faith in God.

The less physical evidence you have, the greater intellectual understanding you will need.
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#19
RE: do religious people really believe?
(February 24, 2013 at 11:49 am)fr0d0 Wrote: You don't seem to know what faith is, with respect Paul.

To have faith, according to the Xtian tradition, you must have information that you accept to be true. You must trust that information, and you must then also act upon it. With all three, you can then say that you have faith in God.

The less physical evidence you have, the greater intellectual understanding you will need.

well i know what faith is for one thing.
Youre replying to this thread and saying its a fail to say religious people seem to have doubts about god because you say this is obvious, without a doubt you wouldnt need faith.
This doesnt make sense to me because faith is trust and confidence, doubt is lack of trust and confidence, so its like saying i lack confidence and trust in something so thats why i need to have confidence and trust in something.
But apart from that im assuming since youre relating to this thread in the first place that you do feel sad when young people die, and you havent given away the majority of your money so my question to you would be why? is it because as you said before youre crippled by your human nature? if you do have faith why not just say to yourself right i believe in god im a christian, theres definitely a heaven anyway so i dont have to worry about kids dying and i should give away the majority of my money to the poor because even if i die of poverty ill still get into heaven?
Im just saying if i believed in god this is exactly what i would do.


Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.

Impersonation is treason.





Reply
#20
RE: do religious people really believe?
(February 24, 2013 at 11:07 am)fr0d0 Wrote: That's the point I was making, yes.

The illustration demonstrates the nature if faith. Even with our intellectual assent and then trust, we're still crippled by our natures.

Huh? Crippled? Your very nature encourages and incubates faith.......
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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