What is a proof?

[Mystic]

If they deserve hell then it is not a contradiction

I beg to differ:


Say Islam was true
And I was a Jew
Would God torture me
For what I did not see?

In the name of justice
Pain as the flames burn
Days turn into weeks
Weeks into years
All for disbelief
I will have no relief

Billions of years pass by
Justice is still not served
All good is rejected
My good actions are ineffective
And I would not burn if my mind was reflective?

This is the creed that I use to follow
But now I realize such a creed is shallow
Whomever desires other than the true religion
Let him burn in the fire?!
As oppose to loving him, having compassion for him
Appreciating his good,
Honouring his struggles,
Being his friend,
No! No! That is not the way!

For God is enemy of those whom disbelieve!
Friend and Protector of those whom believe!
All are reduced to the lowest of the low!
Except - of course - for those all special and great believers!
Everyone but them, to hell they go!

All astray souls - be prepared for increasing burning!
For none but the guided will have peace!
Is that the remembrance that is suppose to bring ease?
Peace you say?
Bowing Five times a day!
To a Lord whom will watch humans burn in agony?
Having the believers laugh at them for the sake of an irony?

A Lord whom tortures everyone but the righteous guided?
A Lord whom loves not the disbelievers!
Hates them with a strong hatred!
And all this teachings is suppose to be sacred?

Most Merciful, Most Compassionate is he called by all!
But threatens all to hell, except those whom respond to the call?
If you have to be righteous to enter heaven.
What mercy was ever spread in creation?
Or is God accepting regret from a righteous person
Truly a show of ultra mercy, forgiveness, and compassion?
As if it's not justice to accept his regret and reformation!

At the end, O Lord of Islam!
If you are to burn me for this heresy
Then you truly were not a Lord of Mercy.
Not Worthy of Worship, not worth anyone's time.

[EGross]

Any religion that has a hell, makes it to control the ignorant. The more complex the hell, the more controlling the religion. Mohammend probably stole that idea from the Church, and it served him well. But the problem with having a religion to subdue freedom is that, in the end, freedom wins.

Controlling is not bad as we are slaves

I agree whole heartedly that Religion is the authority upon which one gives up his or her freedom to be a slave to a deity.

You adore slavery of that kind. I hold the opposite opinion. You see joy in servitude, I see joy in freedom. And while there is a long history of atrocities being done in the name of [put name of favorite god here], often, supposedly, by His/Her command, those who are free and do not live in a theocracy have always had the ability and more often than not, say "no!".

You will continue to believe, because being a slave feels good. And so the rest of this discussion is fairly pointless, because a slave will never say anything against his master or the slave handlers. To begin to do so would be the beginning of the end of slavery.

[Mystic]

I would say there is an illusion that Muslims are slaves to God.

To obey God, they must obey Mohammad. So they have two masters now, God and Mohammad. But that's ok, because Mohammad is sent by God and is his Vicegerent on earth.

But to obey Mohammad, they have to follow hadiths which is trasmitted by people. And to know which hadiths to follow, they have to follow scholars that tell you what hadith is right or wrong. But that's not enough, for comes understanding of Quran and hadiths, all with each other, which takes years and years of study.

Thus Muslims end up submitting and enslaving themselves to Scholars.

This would not be so bad if the scholars all taught the same thing, but they are divided and teach different interpretations of Islam and hadiths. They go against one another. Some call others Mushriks, etc...

Then to make matters worse, all people not enslaved to the correct scholars (the true sect) will be in hell per hadiths. Only one saved sect of Islam makes it.

Reality shows they are slaves to scholars. This is reality.

Islam is submission to scholars.

[EGross]

It gets scarier, and I have had this exact same conversation with other Muslims.

If I lived in Saudi Arabia, and hung out with Osama bin Ladan, and we saw someone standing on a soap box, shouting that Allah requires that the first born son of all Muslim families be put to death to quell his anger, and that Mohammed had done so with his son. The punishment of such blasphemy would be imprisonment, flogging, amputation, hanging, or beheading, depending on the law. He would have been treated like some disgusting thing to be discarded.

Now, when Bin Laden gets up on the same soap box and makes his own declaration of death, he is in no danger of the same punishments, because it is not blasphemy, because all that he has said can be interpreted as valid. The very fact that no Fatwa for his crime of blasphemy was ever made against him is a proof by omission that his words are not so outside of the mainstream, and can find support in a faith of slaves.

Because when you are a slave, and the leadership gives you a command, you do it as a true believer. And so that is why you had several true believers obey Bin Laden, while they paused to pray to Allah, and look forward to their eternal reward for doing God's work. And until a decree for the death of such a person comes from a Mufti from within the faith, then is it not that Islam defines what Osama really is, but the other way around.

Slaves are dangerous.

[Muslim Scholar]

It gets scarier, and I have had this exact same conversation with other Muslims.

If I lived in Saudi Arabia, and hung out with Osama bin Ladan, and we saw someone standing on a soap box, shouting that Allah requires that the first born son of all Muslim families be put to death to quell his anger, and that Mohammed had done so with his son. The punishment of such blasphemy would be imprisonment, flogging, amputation, hanging, or beheading, depending on the law. He would have been treated like some disgusting thing to be discarded.

Now, when Bin Laden gets up on the same soap box and makes his own declaration of death, he is in no danger of the same punishments, because it is not blasphemy, because all that he has said can be interpreted as valid. The very fact that no Fatwa for his crime of blasphemy was ever made against him is a proof by omission that his words are not so outside of the mainstream, and can find support in a faith of slaves.

Because when you are a slave, and the leadership gives you a command, you do it as a true believer. And so that is why you had several true believers obey Bin Laden, while they paused to pray to Allah, and look forward to their eternal reward for doing God's work. And until a decree for the death of such a person comes from a Mufti from within the faith, then is it not that Islam defines what Osama really is, but the other way around.

Slaves are dangerous.

Muslims are not slaves to other Muslims, only to God

---

Islam is submission to scholars.

You need to understand the whole system, but to make it simple

It is the same like the scientific community
When you are researching a scientific subject, you look for sources, theories, references, analyze them then make a conclusion

In Islam it is the same
The sources are Quran & Hadith
Some of the Hadith texts are verified some are doubtful others are totally wrong
Same for scientific articles and theories some are verified some are doubtful some are total hoax

You need to research and pick what do you think it is applicable and correct, if you cannot by yourself you can read what others said about them.

At the end God will not be unfair to you
According to Islam
If you tried and failed you will have a reward
If you tried and got the right direction you will have two

So even if you got something wrong, but you were honest in trying to obey God you will not be punished

[KichigaiNeko]

Welcome to the 8th century MS

[justin]

Seriously dude? No it is not like the scientific community. Wrong! Not at all. Someone lied to you or you came to this conclusion all wrong.

[KichigaiNeko]

Seriously dude? No it is not like the scientific community. Wrong! Not at all. Someone lied to you or you came to this conclusion all wrong.

But MS has 'allah" so this makes his retarded thinking OK justin....

The worst thing that iSlam ever did was to kill ALL the academia of Persia.

[justin]

Seriously dude? No it is not like the scientific community. Wrong! Not at all. Someone lied to you or you came to this conclusion all wrong.

But MS has 'allah" so this makes his retarded thinking OK justin....

The worst thing that iSlam ever did was to kill ALL the academia of Persia.

Once you go into the realm of the supernatural you have left the realm of reality.

And be a umbrella for terrorist organizations, women and child oppression, etc. Seems like a peaceful and intelligent stance......not. MS stick with faith, knowledge is the enemy of your religion.

[KichigaiNeko]

But MS has 'allah" so this makes his retarded thinking OK justin....

The worst thing that iSlam ever did was to kill ALL the academia of Persia.

Once you go into the realm of the supernatural you have left the realm of reality.

And be a umbrella for terrorist organizations, women and child oppression, etc. Seems like a peaceful and intelligent stance......not. MS stick with faith, knowledge is the enemy of your religion.

Persia kept knowledge alive during the "Dark ages" then iSlam was inflicted on the Persian sates and now we have nothing but this iSlamic terrorism overshadowing anything that even remotely smacks of knowledge.

It is very sad when you look into the history of say Iran or Iraq .... as compared to now a days?