Ban forced religious studies in schools

[festive1]

Well, let us say we have religious education in public schools (just for the sake of argument). What beliefs should be taught? Catholicism? Islam? Judaism? Protestantism (if so, which branch?)?
Personally, I think public education should stick to facts (which have a basis in reality), not beliefs.

I am not really sure. Maybe the state should give some sort of subsidy to private schools to set things up their own way. I find it incredibly hypocritical to hear liberals who supposedly love freedom talk about imposing their education on everyone else through taxation and forcing people to accept their philosophy. A free thinker, huh.

Do you really think that modern science is the place to turn for "facts"? The models that science creates, it is debatable whether they actually exist. Religious belief certainly exists as a cultural force. You can see it working in charities around the world that do billions of dollars worth of work, maybe trillions of dollars.

I'd assume that you agree about teaching kids certain subjects, like math, biology, English, civics, geography, history, foreign languages? It's not just my educational philosophy, it's yours (minus the religious bits).
I think it's worse to force beliefs upon children they may or may not share. And threats of hell is force. America has a separation of church and state, the state teaching religious beliefs in public schools breaches this separation. I don't want my kids to be taught about religion by their teachers (exceptions being comparative religion courses, without weight or preference given to one belief system over another, designed for older kids in high school). If you want your kids to go to a religious school, great! But if you want to add in the religion, you've got to pay for it. There are even after-school bible study programs, if you can't afford the full price of tuition, and many religious (and other private) schools offer scholarships. Doesn't mean my kids should be forced to learn about your preferred religion.
If the world were mine to run, I'd get rid of religious tax exemptions, so good luck getting me to side with you on subsidizing parochial schools. Tithing is what? 10% of your income? There are enough religious people donating to keep those wheels greased.
Modern science isn't the only place to turn for facts. Math is chock full of facts. History is also full of facts, but not so much science (unless you're talking about scientific history). Literature is also an excellent subject to delve into problems concerning the human condition.

[jstrodel]

I am not really sure. Maybe the state should give some sort of subsidy to private schools to set things up their own way. I find it incredibly hypocritical to hear liberals who supposedly love freedom talk about imposing their education on everyone else through taxation and forcing people to accept their philosophy. A free thinker, huh.

Do you really think that modern science is the place to turn for "facts"? The models that science creates, it is debatable whether they actually exist. Religious belief certainly exists as a cultural force. You can see it working in charities around the world that do billions of dollars worth of work, maybe trillions of dollars.

I'd assume that you agree about teaching kids certain subjects, like math, biology, English, civics, geography, history, foreign languages? It's not just my educational philosophy, it's yours (minus the religious bits).
I think it's worse to force beliefs upon children they may or may not share. And threats of hell is force. America has a separation of church and state, the state teaching religious beliefs in public schools breaches this separation. I don't want my kids to be taught about religion by their teachers (exceptions being comparative religion courses, without weight or preference given to one belief system over another, designed for older kids in high school). If you want your kids to go to a religious school, great! But if you want to add in the religion, you've got to pay for it. There are even after-school bible study programs, if you can't afford the full price of tuition, and many religious (and other private) schools offer scholarships. Doesn't mean my kids should be forced to learn about your preferred religion.
If the world were mine to run, I'd get rid of religious tax exemptions, so good luck getting me to side with you on subsidizing parochial schools. Tithing is what? 10% of your income? There are enough religious people donating to keep those wheels greased.
Modern science isn't the only place to turn for facts. Math is chock full of facts. History is also full of facts, but not so much science (unless you're talking about scientific history). Literature is also an excellent subject to delve into problems concerning the human condition.

What is wrong with people going to the kind of schools that match their worldview, and the state simply paying for the part that agrees with a general curriculum. I think a general education like you have said is useful.

The fact is that a state education is imposing its own philosophy on people, though it may not be explicitly religious, it still has its own faith. Why should people be forced to pay for that faith?

After school Bible study is totally different than a rigorous schooling that exists. I don't see how anyone with a clear conscience can support imposing their philosophy on others and call themselves a free thinker at the same time.

People should be able to use their educational tax dollars as they see fit. Atheists should not have to pay for religious education, neither should religious people have to pay for atheistic or liberal education.

[genkaus]

Religion is one of the most definitive aspects of Western Civilization, to fail to understand it is to fail to understand our educational heritage. Russell Kirk writes about the tyranny of reason, and the foolish, prideful attitude which causes men to exalt their petty schemes over the collective voice of history. I think he is right. Of course reason is valuable, but people that are well educated must always have a sense of their past and their place in the human predicament, which cannot be understood solely in math and engineering terminology. Nor is it all religious, but understanding religion is an important part of understanding what it means to be human.

That much is covered pretty well in history classes. In fact, I've always thought that it was a good place to learn about religion - from different religious practices of various cultures that came before and how they led to war and strife to how there is a complete absence of evidence for the mythological stories being told to you by your priest.

[Esquilax]

What is wrong with people going to the kind of schools that match their worldview, and the state simply paying for the part that agrees with a general curriculum. I think a general education like you have said is useful.

The fact is that a state education is imposing its own philosophy on people, though it may not be explicitly religious, it still has its own faith. Why should people be forced to pay for that faith?

After school Bible study is totally different than a rigorous schooling that exists. I don't see how anyone with a clear conscience can support imposing their philosophy on others and call themselves a free thinker at the same time.

People should be able to use their educational tax dollars as they see fit. Atheists should not have to pay for religious education, neither should religious people have to pay for atheistic or liberal education.

If you can, detail to us all exactly what this atheistic of liberal philosophy that is being imposed entails. So far you're just said that it exists but you haven't so much as hinted at what it might be. And just for the record, the absence of your specific faith doctrine is not a philosophy on its own.

[jstrodel]

What is wrong with people going to the kind of schools that match their worldview, and the state simply paying for the part that agrees with a general curriculum. I think a general education like you have said is useful.

The fact is that a state education is imposing its own philosophy on people, though it may not be explicitly religious, it still has its own faith. Why should people be forced to pay for that faith?

After school Bible study is totally different than a rigorous schooling that exists. I don't see how anyone with a clear conscience can support imposing their philosophy on others and call themselves a free thinker at the same time.

People should be able to use their educational tax dollars as they see fit. Atheists should not have to pay for religious education, neither should religious people have to pay for atheistic or liberal education.

If you can, detail to us all exactly what this atheistic of liberal philosophy that is being imposed entails. So far you're just said that it exists but you haven't so much as hinted at what it might be. And just for the record, the absence of your specific faith doctrine is not a philosophy on its own.

All of the words, the philosophy that underlies the words, the assumptions and values that are being transmitted, the role of nationalism and capitalistic assumptions about behavior in state education, the view of gender, the way that historical events are treated with different levels of respect and points of view are taken consistent with the ideology of the state/liberalism, the way that controversial scientific issues are handled such as abiogenesis and many other issues. The philosophy of the educators determines the curriculum, impartiality is just a value to constrain the will from tainting information but necessarily the will exists to be directed toward the which wisdom defines.

They call it "liberal education" for a reason. And yes, sometimes liberal education advocates politically liberal issues (this was true in the high school that I went to - a private school and is even more true in college). More common I think is that the liberal educators refuse to take positions on issues that are of very serious social consequence, they simply have a view of education that allows them to censor all the parts which do not fit into their philosophy. They call this "impartiality".

The hallmark of liberal education is to deny that education is inherently philosophical. But the great thinkers and educators of history have been philosophers and what is called science is really an elaborate system of philosophy with ultra specialized methods of handling specific kinds of information. The disciplines arose out of mens philosophical temperaments, they were not discovered, they were not revealed from heaven as many atheists think. They came from men who thought about the world in a specific way and applied that way of thinking to their work.