The concept of Hell discourages belief

[The Reality Salesman01]

"What if he does not want your help in any way shape or form? What if from the time he could speak he made it clear he did not like you or your authority over him? Would you force him to accept you and what you offered? Would you force Him to stay in your house even if he was old enough to leave?"

If my son wants to leave, he can leave. But at least his decision will come from experiencing something, and then deciding that you want something else.

If my Son wanted to walk out of my house, but I knew for certain that there was immediate life threatening danger awaiting him on the other side of the door, yes, I would make him stay. If it means saving his life, absolutely. But, I would also explain to him and show him why I did what I did. I wouldn't have to force him. I could show him. The way that I would show him wouldn't be cryptic or abstract or open to interpretation. I would use words and logic. I would communicate to him using methods he is equipped to understand. You are suggesting that in order for us to have free will, there must be a preordained consequence to choosing something different. The old expression "My way or the highway" is not bad. If you don't like the way someone does things, you are free to leave. What if it were "My way or eternal torture"? Keeping in mind that God can change any of these "necessary variables" in this game. Why has a compassionate God setup such a cruel game made up of choosing mysteries behind doors? Why not show us what we need to see. Convey directly using methods we are equipped to comprehend. Even if God himself were standing in Times Square performing miracles left and right, bringing folks back from the dead, and handing out t-shirts, and someone still didn't believe...IT STILL WOULDN'T BE OKAY TO TORTURE THEM! Not on that criteria! In fact, the possibility that such pain and suffering is possible when an alternative way could have been designed is cruel. They are playing the hand they were dealt. Not everyone thinks the same way. You are a perfect example of this. If someone doesn't believe in even those circumstances, it would be because the tools they depended on to think, the very ones they were given, were not meant to arrive at the same conclusion. It's not grounds for torture. I can't think of any circumstance that would warrant such punishment for anything so silly as not believing something is real and not devoting their life to worshiping it. But God isn't standing on the street handing out t-shirts and performing miracles or bringing folks back to life. He is a character being interpreted a million different ways and marketed as a champion for clarity, charity and goodwill with an undying thirst for praise and frightening threats of torture if one were so bold as to not worship Him how He sees fit. There are thousands of supposed Gods in circulation, and you don't believe in most of them. There isn't anything any of the followers of any of the other religions could do to change your mind yet you find it hard to comprehend how I and all of us could believe in just one less God than you. I would really question the concepts you are defending right now. Challenge everything you are justifying and keep in mind...ALL POWERFUL, UNLIMITED POTENTIAL, NOTHING IS OUTSIDE HIS ABILITIES. If there is one other possible way of doing things that saves one more "SOUL" from pain of any kind, why not set things up that way? Don't you see the error in this logic.

Of course it makes sense that if I refuse God he shouldn't make me love him, but the sick part you are failing to recognize is the consequence to the alternative! He is allowing the terrible consequence! It's in his power to change it. But, wants it this way. You somehow think this makes sense? This seems ok to you? This seems like the perfect scheme of things?




God is the supposed perfect being. If he designed a chain of events, based on free will, that ultimately results in the torturing of anyone for anything so trivial as a disagreement in how much worship He deserves, its sick.

I'm sorry for spelling errors. I didn't have time to revise!

[Tonus]

We do not know exactly what it meant for Jesus to be nailed to that cross to take on the sins of the world.

This statement appears to answer itself. Jesus was nailed to the cross to take on the sins of the world. Or are you saying that you don't know what that means, or what it will result in?

The ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ is a pretty big deal to Christians. How can you worship him without knowing what it meant?

[Gabriel Syme]

If ultimately, the life we choose differs from that which The Bible outlines as the standard, and obviously there are millions of different interpretations of what that standard is, then God (Heavenly Father ) invokes his punishment to his children...

This punishment is described as unimaginable torture. It says "You will pray for death but death will not find you", this is an eternal and definite punishment from which there will not be a chance for salvation or rescue. God will cast you away land turn his back to you because to HIM you have already done so to him

My questions are many with comprehending these concepts..

Hi Texas Sailor,

From my Mainstream Christian (Catholic) view, your starting point is flawed.

I agree there are many different views as to how a Christian should regard the Bible and its contents, but these are not all equivalent views. These essentially boil down to:

1) The Mainstream and original view (Catholic and Orthodox Christians - these together are about 75% of all Christians)

and

2) The Protestant views (the many thousands of people who thought they knew better, giving rise to tens of thousands of different denominations, together accounting for approx. 25% of Christians).

Really an observer should confront the Mainstream Christian view ,to ensure the most worthwhile and accurate analysis. What you describe (in bold) above is not a Mainstream Christian view.

Catholics do not understand "hell" as being a terribly hot place, inhabited by devils (!) where people suffer forever. We regard "hell" as being the condition of eternal separation from God.

Naturally, if "Heaven" is the condition of being with God*, then "Hell" is the opposite. As Christians often refer to Heaven as "eternal life", then perhaps a better way to understand the Mainstream Christian view of Hell is to think of it as "eternal death".

(I make sense of this personally by thinking that, rather than go to some hideous (and pointless) fire-pit somewhere, perhaps some people do just die at the end of their mortal life. Just cease to exist. Whereas others return to God, like a raindrop returning to the Ocean, having followed the streams and rivers of life).

As regards God "turning his back on" people, Mainstream Christian understanding is that:

- God never turns his back on anyone
- God desires all people "to be saved" (to go to Heaven)
- God predestines no-one to go to Hell
- People ultimately damn themselves to Hell, by wilfully turning away from God and persisting in this stance

In summary form, from the Catholic Catechism:

(4 number digits are paragraph numbers)

1056 Following the example of Christ, the Church warns the faithful of the "sad and lamentable reality of eternal death" (GCD 69), also called "hell."

1057 Hell's principal punishment consists of eternal separation from God in whom alone man can have the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost: "Lord, let me never be parted from you." If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God "desires all men to be saved" (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him "all things are possible" (Mt 19:26).

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/ar...123a12.htm

[John V]

Catholics do not understand "hell" as being a terribly hot place, inhabited by devils (!) where people suffer forever. We regard "hell" as being the condition of eternal separation from God.

Can you support that? I just read the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on hell and "a terribly hot place, inhabited by devils (!) where people suffer forever" seems to be well within Catholic thought on the subject.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

[smax]

Heaven and Hell are the adult versions of Santa's naughty and nice list. Parents know that Santa Clause does not actually exist, but they use the naughty and nice list to motivate naive and gullible children into doing what they want them to. In this way, parents are very much like the keepers of the faith, or the highest ranking religious leaders.

[Drich]

If my son wants to leave, he can leave. But at least his decision will come from experiencing something, and then deciding that you want something else.

Which again is why we have been given this life?

If my Son wanted to walk out of my house, but I knew for certain that there was immediate life threatening danger awaiting him on the other side of the door, yes, I would make him stay. If it means saving his life, absolutely.

For how long an eternity? How many days before a openly rebellious son is ready to kill his father if his father is keeping him locked up?

But, I would also explain to him and show him why I did what I did. I wouldn't have to force him. I could show him. The way that I would show him wouldn't be cryptic or abstract or open to interpretation. I would use words and logic. I would communicate to him using methods he is equipped to understand.

Let's talk again when one of your boys falls in love with a party girl. The Heart wants what the heart wants. If your heart does not belong to God then no amount of talking will reason you into giving it to Him. Or if you perfer if your son has given his heart to that party girl then nothing you can say or do will carry any weight. Even if it means his life.

You are suggesting that in order for us to have free will, there must be a preordained consequence to choosing something different. The old expression "My way or the highway" is not bad. If you don't like the way someone does things, you are free to leave. What if it were "My way or eternal torture"? Keeping in mind that God can change any of these "necessary variables" in this game.

What if it was being apart of God and Creation or being eternally seperated from both? What if Hell was not a place designed for torture, but a voidcompletely devoid of God or anything He has created. What if the torture was part and partial of a member of creation being seperated from it?

If God is the Creator of all things and is Omnipresent in all that He has created, how can you be placed in a non void/hell enviorment and still be seperated from God? Any provision God would make for you would place you in his presents would it not? (as that provision would indeed be apart of creation) So how can one be seperated from God if he is not placed in the absents of creation?

Why has a compassionate God setup such a cruel game made up of choosing mysteries behind doors?

The doors are only closed because you have not Asked, Sought, or Knocked as outlined in Luke 11.

Why not show us what we need to see.

Because unless you A/S/K to See what God has to show you it would force you to choose God even if you really did not want to, as a matter of self perservation. That is why we have been given this life so we can freely choose how to spend our eternity without the weight of eternity bearing down on what we decide.

Convey directly using methods we are equipped to comprehend. Even if God himself were standing in Times Square performing miracles left and right, bringing folks back from the dead, and handing out t-shirts, and someone still didn't believe...IT STILL WOULDN'T BE OKAY TO TORTURE THEM!

Again what makes you think God id the one torturing them? Can't the pain of eternal seperation be torture enough?

Not on that criteria! In fact, the possibility that such pain and suffering is possible when an alternative way could have been designed is cruel. They are playing the hand they were dealt. Not everyone thinks the same way. You are a perfect example of this. If someone doesn't believe in even those circumstances, it would be because the tools they depended on to think, the very ones they were given, were not meant to arrive at the same conclusion. It's not grounds for torture.

I would argue it is however legitmate grounds for segergation. If one half of the populice thinks ABC and the other thinks XYZ, then it is only a matter of time before one party is discontent and makes the other align themselves to the way they think.. What is eternity but time?

I can't think of any circumstance that would warrant such punishment for anything so silly as not believing something is real and not devoting their life to worshiping it.

Because for you every thing has a start middle and end. So everything is at best temperary. Nothing warrants eternal punishment because nothing you know of is eternal. However if you cared to step back and view all of us from an eternal stand point then something must be done with those who do not or will not be apart of God's soceity. Otherwise they will plague and be torture for God and all of those who worship Him. Why should everyone suffer because some of 'us' do not like the options they have been given?

Do you garden? what do you do with the weeds? do you pull them up or allow them to weaken and kill your desired plants?

But God isn't standing on the street handing out t-shirts and performing miracles or bringing folks back to life. He is a character being interpreted a million different ways and marketed as a champion for clarity, charity and goodwill with an undying thirst for praise and frightening threats of torture if one were so bold as to not worship Him how He sees fit. There are thousands of supposed Gods in circulation, and you don't believe in most of them. There isn't anything any of the followers of any of the other religions could do to change your mind yet you find it hard to comprehend how I and all of us could believe in just one less God than you. I would really question the concepts you are defending right now. Challenge everything you are justifying and keep in mind...ALL POWERFUL, UNLIMITED POTENTIAL, NOTHING IS OUTSIDE HIS ABILITIES. If there is one other possible way of doing things that saves one more "SOUL" from pain of any kind, why not set things up that way? Don't you see the error in this logic.

No I only see the grace. In that we haven't been only given one way to worship. I told you this the first time through. The parable of the talents tells us we are only responsiable for what we have been given. I don't know what your exposure is to the bible outside of a church setting (If you have read it on your own or not) But know this God did not give Christianity one set of rules to follow. Now ask why.

Because Christianity is not about a method of worship. It is unlike every other religion on the planet. Christianity, Biblical Christianity is based on freedom found away from the law of God. This means we are allowed to Worship Christ any way we think best serves Him.

Of course it makes sense that if I refuse God he shouldn't make me love him, but the sick part you are failing to recognize is the consequence to the alternative! He is allowing the terrible consequence! It's in his power to change it. But, wants it this way. You somehow think this makes sense? This seems ok to you? This seems like the perfect scheme of things?

Absolutely yes. For if you read what I experienced in my trip to Hell, even though the torment and pain I knew I chose my own fate, and even though I was being consumed by my desision to be seperated from God, I did find the 'punishment' to be a fair one.

God is the supposed perfect being. If he designed a chain of events, based on free will, that ultimately results in the torturing of anyone for anything so trivial as a disagreement in how much worship He deserves, its sick.

I'm sorry for spelling errors. I didn't have time to revise!

Which is why we have been given this life. To decide whether or not we want to spend an eternity with the God of the bible and not the God you have created in your own mind.

And know I am the last person you need to appologise for spelling. (to be honest I did not even notice.)

[Tonus]

What if he chooses Hot tar to your company? or more likly What if this bad seed wanted to be in your company just to torment his brothers and sisters?

However if their is resentment or discontentment in that child's heart given enough time

For how long an eternity? How many days before a openly rebellious son is ready to kill his father if his father is keeping him locked up?

Let's talk again when one of your boys falls in love with a party girl. The Heart wants what the heart wants. If your heart does not belong to God then no amount of talking will reason you into giving it to Him. Or if you perfer if your son has given his heart to that party girl then nothing you can say or do will carry any weight. Even if it means his life.

It seems as if the legitimacy of the concept of hell is dependent on the parent in question doing a spectacularly lousy job of raising his kids.

[Drich]

This statement appears to answer itself. Jesus was nailed to the cross to take on the sins of the world. Or are you saying that you don't know what that means, or what it will result in?

The ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ is a pretty big deal to Christians. How can you worship him without knowing what it meant?

What it means long term to Christ in relation to how it effects the relationship with the Father.

Again God Gave His only Son... If this statement ment that God gave his son to be nailed to a cross to only be resurected the 3rd day, and after which it is business as usual then indeed what is the big deal? What I am saying or asking is what is indeed the cost of God giving His only Son? It is appearent that Christ was resurected, and plays the Role of the final judge of the world and set at the right hand of the Father, but for eternity future what does it mean for Christ? Is He still considered God? Or has all of this cost God the Son His title? and he has (for our sake) been demoted to something other than God the Son? Was this the price of our freedom?

Some will conjecture Yes and Some will conjecture no, Neither is the point of what I am saying. What I am asking/saying is that we do not know what it cost God/Christ to be our sin sacerfice. So to say Christ died for us big whup." Is foolishness, because again we do not know nor are we told the complete extent of Christ's sacerfice.

[Tonus]

What I am asking/saying is that we do not know what it cost God/Christ to be our sin sacerfice. So to say Christ died for us big whup." Is foolishness, because again we do not know nor are we told the complete extent of Christ's sacerfice.

That is an interesting approach. I admit that while I was taught that the ransom sacrifice of Christ was the basis of Christianity (it is how humanity is redeemed) I had never thought about what the cost was to Jesus or god until I'd long left religious belief behind. Had I ever been asked to consider that, it would have vexed me something awful, because that's the whole idea of sacrifice-- giving up something of great value to yourself in order to gain something greater for others. And Jesus considered it the greatest expression of love, to give your life for your friends.

I would consider it imperative to understand the actual cost, because that's what the faith is based on, that the sacrifice was necessary to save humanity. If we don't even understand what has been lost, how can we know what has been gained?

[Godscreated]

What I am asking/saying is that we do not know what it cost God/Christ to be our sin sacerfice. So to say Christ died for us big whup." Is foolishness, because again we do not know nor are we told the complete extent of Christ's sacerfice.

That is an interesting approach. I admit that while I was taught that the ransom sacrifice of Christ was the basis of Christianity (it is how humanity is redeemed) I had never thought about what the cost was to Jesus or god until I'd long left religious belief behind. Had I ever been asked to consider that, it would have vexed me something awful, because that's the whole idea of sacrifice-- giving up something of great value to yourself in order to gain something greater for others. And Jesus considered it the greatest expression of love, to give your life for your friends.

I would consider it imperative to understand the actual cost, because that's what the faith is based on, that the sacrifice was necessary to save humanity. If we don't even understand what has been lost, how can we know what has been gained?

There are things we do know that Christ gave up ie. sacrificed. Christ being part of the Holy Trinity gave up His separation from sin to become sin. So God suffered knowing sin instead of the purity He had always know, this was done for all people. Christ gave up His great powers when He came as Jesus, Jesus relied on the Father's power, this means He had to trust instead of always being trusted, this was done for all people. As Drich said, Christ gave up His righteousness and became sin, this in itself should be proof of His love, this was done for all people. Christ gave up not ever suffering to suffer greatly for us and He gave up not knowing death to die for us, He experienced death, this was done for all people. Christ gave up His greatness to be born a human, His riches to be poor, His eternal strength to become tired, so tired He had to stop and rest, His complete satisfaction to be hungry, dirty, relying on man to feed Him, yes Jesus relied on human frailty for His needs, this was done for all people. Christ gave up being King over man to become a servant for man, this was done for all people. I could go on but I think that gives some things to think about. As Drich said, we do not even know what Christ may have give up in eternity, for all people.