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The concept of Hell discourages belief
#51
RE: The concept of Hell discourages belief
(March 22, 2013 at 3:54 am)Godschild Wrote: Why do you insist that God is at fault, Adam and Eve were the one's that sinned, they were not forced. My parents did a great job of raising me, yet when I was out on my own I made many bad choices, choices that lead to the result my parents told me they would. I do not blame them, I made the choices that I was taught not to and the resulting consequences belong on my shoulders and mine alone.
As I said, I was theorizing. What I wrote begins from the premise that god has it in him to be responsible for his actions. The idea can also be developed from the "god is pure and good" standpoint and the end result is a bit less harmonious than this one, but lack of harmony is to be expected with the Bible.

In any case, my assumption that god is at fault is based on the fact that in any other facet of life, we would blame the person who made something if that item did not work as intended. When it comes to god, you reverse the assumption, but I do not. I insist that god is at fault because it is the logically consistent explanation. You insist that he isn't because... you insist that he isn't. *shrug*
Godschild Wrote:Let's determine when this choice was made, scripture tells us that this was determined before creation, and the choice was not to experience the human condition, it was to be the perfect sacrifice through the human condition. I agree that God seem hard on His people, just as a child believes it's parents are harsh when they are being punished, He asked them to trust them and obey so He could protect them, when they did they prospered greatly, when not they were punished. One description you used "uncompromising", why would the Creator ever need to bargain with His creation.
My description was simply that, a description of god as he is in the OT. Although I was wrong about the "uncompromising" part; Moses gets god to change his mind in Exodus 32.
Godschild Wrote:Christ, the Father, nor the Holy Spirit has ever been conflicted, they are the omniscient God, Yahweh knows all for all time and eternity.
Yahweh regretted creating humanity, which is the basis for the flood account, where he expresses this regret by not wiping out the humanity he regretted creating, which succeeds in not resolving anything. This indicates that he was conflicted; he felt he'd made a mistake, and expresses his anger (at most of creation) but cannot bring himself to completely undo his mistake, and thus perpetuates it.

Or maybe he knew all along that he'd feel some regret and take it out on the planet, and therefore he wasn't really conflicted. He was just a bigger bastard than we'd imagined. I can work with that, but it requires a whole new theory. Granted, it would be a lot of fun to write.
Godschild Wrote:I'm not sure how you can come up with this through the Sermon on the Mount, man is responsible for his condition. The the struggling and the suffering people of that time generally were put in that position by the supposed righteous and upstanding people or they were born into a poor position. Jesus was giving them hope for the future. As far as the struggle you say God is going through, Jesus said himself that a house divided can not stand, Jesus also says that He and the Father are One. Through scripture we see God hard at work to redeem those who will except His extended hand.
The Sermon on the Mount is a whole topic unto itself, but I'm just showing how it can support the idea that I was developing in that post. His attitude throughout is passive-aggressive, as if he's toying with his listeners. I find it a particularly fascinating piece of Bible lore.
Godschild Wrote:You have a big imagination, but why imagine, the truth is in the scriptures you are trying to mock. Christ does not judge himself, there's nothing to judge His plan is perfect, which by the way can only come from a perfect God. Jesus had no regrets on the cross, He did suffer through the horror of all sin being placed upon Him, but no regret.
But you may have noticed that my explanation, blasphemous as it may seem, fills the gaps as well as any other. Well, you probably didn't notice it, LOL. But I'm guessing that I could start up another minor Christian cult around the concept because it flows very nicely, if I may say so myself.
Godschild Wrote:Again some imagination, totally wrong. God never needed to identify with man, he completely understood, this is why he knew the only way to restore man to himself was to give his Son as a sacrifice for man, to give man a way to have his wrongs righted by God.
God is all powerful and god makes the rules. Given his nature, he could have figured out any number of ways to set mankind on a better path without use of a ritual murder. As I said before, in almost any other facet of our lives, we apply a consistent set of logical rules to determine what does and doesn't make sense, but we're expected to cast it aside or even go against it in order to justify god.

But yeah, my theory is a product of imagination. This is religion we're discussing, after all.
Godschild Wrote:Jesus said that the word of God would never change not one little bit Matt.5:18. If people do not come to God through the provision he has given, then they will suffer their choice. This life is not a rest stop by any means, it is a time to walk in a faithful relationship with God through Jesus Christ for the coming eternity.
I do not mind you theorizing but shouldn't you do it with what is actually in scripture, making things up does not help the argument.
The hundreds, if not thousands, of different Christian sects attest to the difficulty in interpreting the Bible. My imagined interpretation above draws directly from the Bible and fills in the gaps in a manner consitent with the myth I wanted to create from it. Which is what any religion does. I cannot recall a Christian denomination that does not use external understanding or reasoning to strengthen their interpretation of the Bible.

If I was interested in making my theory fit more comfortably into Bible lore, I have no doubt that I could quote mine the Bible for any number of texts in support of my idea, and come up with any number of excuses and rationalizations for texts that did not support it. The Bible can easily support many divergent approaches. All you need is to find a common thread, develop it, find some verses to support it, and dismiss rationality and logic when someone finds flaws in the theory. BAM!!! Instant religion, bay-beh!
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."

-Stephen Jay Gould
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#52
RE: The concept of Hell discourages belief
(March 22, 2013 at 3:58 am)catfish Wrote: Personally, I don't find the Greeth myth(s) very convincing.
Neither do I.
Quote:Some see the aeonian issue as indicative of the 1000 year reign of Christ. Some will be raised to rule, others will stay behind until the "final" resurrection.
The 1,000 year reign is a time of peace and prosperity. It makes no sense to say this is what verses on torment are referring to.
Quote:You should also be aware that the Greek word which actually means eternal(aidios) is used in the Bible too.
I'm well aware that that word is used - once. I dispute that it is the word for eternal.
Quote:So, if aeonian was meant as "eternal", why wasn't the same word used everywhere?
Sorry to be frank, but that's a stupid question. Languages frequently have more than one word for the same concept. With regard to eternal life, we could say everlasting life and people would understand it the same way.

There are also indications of eternal punishment independent of aionios, such as their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.
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#53
RE: The concept of Hell discourages belief
(March 22, 2013 at 7:35 am)John V Wrote:
(March 22, 2013 at 3:58 am)catfish Wrote: So, if aeonian was meant as "eternal", why wasn't the same word used everywhere?
Sorry to be frank, but that's a stupid question. Languages frequently have more than one word for the same concept. With regard to eternal life, we could say everlasting life and people would understand it the same way.

There are also indications of eternal punishment independent of aionios, such as their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.
No problem frank, I didn't expect you to understand why it's a valid question regarding a Greek word that means "pertaining to an age" as being relevant to the discussion about the so-called "eternal" punishment of an ever-loving and ever-forgiving God... Undecided
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#54
RE: The concept of Hell discourages belief
(March 22, 2013 at 7:49 am)catfish Wrote: No problem frank, I didn't expect you to understand why it's a valid question regarding a Greek word that means "pertaining to an age"
A Greek word which you claim means "pertaining to an age." However, as shown, the context indicates otherwise, unless you're claiming that the afterlife endures for a finite age.

And, you didn't address the fact that there are indications of eternal punishment that are not dependent on aionios.
Quote:as being relevant to the discussion about the so-called "eternal" punishment of an ever-loving and ever-forgiving God... Undecided
This is your real issue. You disapprove of eternal punishment, and rather than deal with it, you pretend it's not there.
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#55
RE: The concept of Hell discourages belief
(March 22, 2013 at 7:35 am)John V Wrote: There are also indications of eternal punishment independent of aionios, such as their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

You know, that could just be a reference to a person's first shot of tequila.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."

-Stephen Jay Gould
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#56
RE: The concept of Hell discourages belief
Lemons and salt is needed!
Drunk Typing
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
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#57
RE: The concept of Hell discourages belief
(March 22, 2013 at 8:01 am)John V Wrote:
(March 22, 2013 at 7:49 am)catfish Wrote: No problem frank, I didn't expect you to understand why it's a valid question regarding a Greek word that means "pertaining to an age"
A Greek word which you claim means "pertaining to an age." However, as shown, the context indicates otherwise, unless you're claiming that the afterlife endures for a finite age.
I'm sorry, I missed where that was "as shown".
You should know that I'm not going to make claims regarding the afterlife, but only about what is written.

(March 22, 2013 at 8:01 am)John V Wrote:
(March 22, 2013 at 7:49 am)catfish Wrote: as being relevant to the discussion about the so-called "eternal" punishment of an ever-loving and ever-forgiving God... Undecided
This is your real issue. You disapprove of eternal punishment, and rather than deal with it, you pretend it's not there.
Yup, "eternal punishment" is not punishment, it is revenge... The Greek fucking myths are what I reject too. So yeah, I object to the eternal punishment in some Greek mythological place of damnation. Who is pretending?


Anyways, "eternal punishment" goes against this verse, make of it what you will. Undecided
Hebrews 12:5-8 King James Version (KJV)

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
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#58
RE: The concept of Hell discourages belief
(March 22, 2013 at 9:40 am)catfish Wrote: I'm sorry, I missed where that was "as shown".
In the verse which I mentioned and Godschild referenced, in which aionios is used to describe the fate of both the saved and the damned. Unless you're arguing that the afterlife of the saved endures for a finite age and then ceases, the context indicates that aionios can mean eternal or everlasting.
Quote:You should know that I'm not going to make claims regarding the afterlife, but only about what is written.
OK, if you're not claiming that the damned are not punished eternally, we have no argument.

(March 22, 2013 at 8:01 am)John V Wrote: Yup, "eternal punishment" is not punishment, it is revenge... The Greek fucking myths are what I reject too. So yeah, I object to the eternal punishment in some Greek mythological place of damnation. Who is pretending?
Object to Greek mythology all you like. The fact is, however, that the Bible teaches eternal suffering.
Quote:Anyways, "eternal punishment" goes against this verse, make of it what you will. Undecided
Hebrews 12:5-8 King James Version (KJV)

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
This passage refers to temporal punishment of the saved, not the afterlife of the damned.
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#59
RE: The concept of Hell discourages belief
2 Timothy 4:3-4
King James Version (KJV)

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
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#60
RE: The concept of Hell discourages belief
(March 22, 2013 at 10:26 am)catfish Wrote: 2 Timothy 4:3-4
King James Version (KJV)

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Yes, like the happily-ever-after fable which you cling to.
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