As time goes by

[ecolox]

In any case, my purpose is simply my family.

So what happens when your family's interests clash with another person's/group's? Do you rig it so that your family will "win" - do you let the other group win - or do you appeal to some higher standard to settle the situation? In the latter case, where does the higher standard come from - and why should the other group listen to that standard?

But people still die everyday of causes that can be prevented. They ask to be saved but die horrible deaths, so how you can go to church every week, worship and thank some almighty power for what you have in your life, despite all the suffering around is beyond me. I respect your affirmation, I just don't think it makes sense one bit.

People will always die every day in the current system. I will die, you will die. I thought you were ok with death - now you're acting like you want people to live forever. That doesn't make much sense to me.

So you're going to let those hungry Africans starve to death? Me and Jesus disapprove.

I do not understand your response. I said:

My question did not ask about enemies alone - go back and reread if you must. The Africans are included in the question as "strangers" - you said "I don't believe in jesus so why do I care?" and then "what about them?" - I assumed these statements to refer to both strangers and enemies. Sounds like you're going to let those strangers suffer - since you're too busy living for your family.

What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.

Perfection does not require inactivity - and this argument is based upon that specifically. So, in sum, this bizarre argument falls flat rather quickly. You can't claim that a perfect God desires nothing or that He will do nothing. How would you know how perfection works anyway? This sounds like the couch-potatoe's or dead-beat's idea of perfection - just pure, inactive, irresponsible existence.

Your god has yet to prove himself to us. The only prove you have is in your bible which in itself is not infallible proof. Its contents is questionable at best.

Do you agree that a rational cause for this existence is important?

I already told you what I live for. Please read above. All the entities I live for are here, very real, are all around me, and are close to my heart. I am not the one basing my life on an imaginary being. It's as simple as that. Your only retort is to tell me I live for nothing if not for god. Please attempt a better explanation.

If you live for something inside this universe then you live for nothing - because it will all be destroyed according to you (it will be as though it had never existed). I am the one living for something with enduring value.

With no god? There is no god to begin with. You cannot even explain god, can you? I wouldn't say I exist for no reason. But again, you are the one here claiming an imaginary being. The burden of proof falls on you to prove this being of yours as infallible.

Then what is there to begin with - for you? You throw out the only option, but why would you say you exist? By the way, I can't/don't have to explain God (unless it is relevant to us)...the rational mission I can take on is explaining my own existence and discovering what I should be doing with it.

I'll put it to you this way. Personally, if I am shown infallible evidence that there is a god, I will readily accept. Then again, I wouldn't have a choice because he would be real so it would be foolish to accept otherwise. However, as of now, he only exists in the bible which as I said above, is itself fallible. You don't even know who wrote the bible except to say "hundreds of people who were inspired, wrote it".

If you had infallible evidence that God exists - how would that effect your choice? Could God test you in the same way? I tend to think that His experiment is set up properly already - that people don't need infallible evidence to live like they know He exists. Some people want to live differently bad enough to deny His existence.

As you can see, I have nothing to lose and all to gain.

No, I don't see that at all. You have everything to lose and nothing to gain. You're coming ever closer to destruction every day - and nothing you do will ever change that - in your belief and in mine.

Now I ask you, for the sake of this debate, if you one day learn that god truly doesn't exist, since you say you live your life for god, what will you do then?

If I learned that then I would die, and that would be the end of it - just like you think will happen to you. I will have loved my family, friends, strangers, and enemies for nothing. Indeed, I will have lived for nothing - just like you.

---

Explore life and the universe and arts and culture, music, literature, science, maths, philosophy but more importantly to enjoy yourself, do things that interest you, there is always a possibility of living a great life with your friends and family and bartender and kids and your partner... there are more things in this life to do than there is time to do it, so you have to enjoy our very existence because you're never getting another one.

You aim, most importantly, to enjoy yourself while people are out there starving and living in miserable circumstances? That's a rather limited view of the world, don't you think?

I see no need to believe in an afterlife;

Of course not, because you wouldn't be in charge of the afterlife. And from your first paragraph I can see that you are most concerned with yourself and what you want.

It, along with religion is a concept developed by primitive, uneducated, superstitious men thousands of years ago to try and explain the universe.

The biggest difference is that your worldview is self-centered - whereas theirs wasn't.

compared to the knowledge we have today their assumptions are laughable, there is no evidence to distinguish their assumptions from any other possibly imagined afterlife or reincarnation, only faith in the ideas of primitive men.

What knowledge - you haven't even explained why you exist? You've highlighted that by discussing what you think you should do with your life.

There is no reason to believe all the functions of the mind(there is no soul) are anything but naturalistic and until evidence arises for an alternative theory i refuse to accept something that offers us no advantage or explanatory power, there is no need for any of the empty religious concepts, they are the product of superstition mixed with human curiosity, and they were completely wrong - it's an idiotic belief and an even more idiotic way to evaluate the universe.

You have yet to offer a viable explanation for why you even exist.

[Edwardo Piet]

Wow!

Simply Wow Kyu

You squirm from debate more than anyone I've known and violently attack without provocation. You seek to scare people off with your impression of a hooligan. Congratulations on that.

Well! At least he's not 'the most narrow minded and stubborn person' that you've 'ever met', which is me apparently

Funny, out of all the people you've known in your life online or offline, I'm apparently the most narrow minded and stubborn person you've ever met and Kyu squirms from debates more than anyone you've apparently ever known.....

My guess is that either you're being at least somewhat disingenious or you're speaking in hyperbole....

If not, my response would be, to quote yourself "Simply Wow"...just wow. You obviously haven't met many people then it seems (!) Lmfao.

EvF

[ecolox]

You can be as sure as you like but you’d be wrong … atheists don’t "worship" a thing, what's important to us is exactly the same as what’s important to you and others … minus the religion.

So, God is the most important thing to me - the concept guides my entire life. What is the most important thing to you?

So your god created suffering so that other people could feel good about themselves for being nice ... and you worship a fucking bastard like that?

God, at least, created the potential for suffering, and yes, I worship God. What is the most important thing to you?

Why should one love enemies and strangers? An enemy is someone who means you ill ... that's not to say I don't give strangers the benefit of the doubt but if they're out to hurt mine or mine they'd better be ready for some serious pain because I fight dirty!

A person should love enemies and strangers because they matter - creations of God. This world will never experience peace until people can do just that. People like you will kill each other off.

Retorth is correct ... not only does life NOT require the supernatural to make sense, it is quite evidence that the supernatural (if accepted as an explanation) would utterly screw our ability to explain anything.

How do you explain your own existence in the absence of the supernatural?

Ok, I guess that means as an individual I get to decide what's moral. Based off some story I heard: Is that your stereo over there buddy? I'll be taking that now, whether you want me to or not. See ya later, and don't try to enforce your rules on me as I walk out with the stereo.

That's a stupid example because, even as a moral relativist, we adhere to laws and local custom (no one says we don't), morality is largely determined by the society in which we live ... besides there's always a fist in the face which would stop your theft PDQ!

(Padraic) A moral relativist said that he does not believe in completely adhering to laws and local customs. If morality is societally determined then the Nazi's were right after all. If you attacked me when I came to pick up my stereo I may just expertly shoot you - in your world.

SMACK!!!! Eco the idiot drops stereo and runs away bleeding from nose and mouth!

BANG!!!! BANG!!!! Kyu the clown collapses dead, shot from afar by Eco the idiot - who then picks up the stereo and prances on home. Hoo-rah!

There is no validatable evidence that your Yahweh exists. And you left the stereo behind when you ran away remember?

Our existence is all the evidence we really need to know that God exists. No, you're dead in this story from multiple, lethal gun shots, and I got my stereo thanks. The Nazis taught me how to shoot and think in this example.

Nothing, see above!

You think that nothing is the most important - but you argue that you live for something.

Eco the dimwit misses the point again ... Padraic clearly said that SOME atheist worship material things but then again SO DO SOME THEISTS ... it's a normal human concept.

So what is the most important thing for you?

To Padraic that is the purpose, me also though I also recognise my purpose is children, the future of the human race,, the hope that we will one day leave numbskulls like you behind as we set off to explore the galaxy.

The human race will die according to you, why do you believe in delaying the inevitable? We'll both be dead by the time there is a serious effort at exploring the galaxy I bet.

So, a theist comes to an atheist forum and bitches about an atheist that jumps in on his thread?

I suppose this is as good a point as any to point out that that is quite possibly the most naïve and stupid thing you've said yet!

Theists are known for proselytizing. The person that I was talking to claimed that proselytizing annoyed him, yet he himself was guilty of it. He was exhibiting hypocrisy. You are just failing to comprehend.

Ignorance? You mean ignorance of your god? Why are you ignorant of Zeus? Of Allah? Of Odin? Of Apollo? Of Quetzalcoatl? Of Zorb? Of the IPU?

You refuse to offer up a rational explanation for your existence. The examples you quote are other people's attempts - where is yours?

Define highest importance! I hold my wife in high regard, my children too.

What would you give the most for, pursue the longest...etc? (e.g. Would you let your wife eat you if she was hungry - only you and the children were available for food?)

Another dumb assertion ... if your god was real it doesn't leave much in the way of choice now does it?

Yes, it does leave much in the way of choice. You can choose to seek/follow God or you can choose to ignore God and live for yourself.

Exactly the same thing your life consists of ... minus the religion.

This isn't a valid response. God changes everything in my life (i.e. you could never live like me without believing in God).

If I was able to stop the holocaust I suppose I would, yes.

Would you fight to the death trying to stop the holocaust? Why?

Yea, and since nothing moral makes any sense anyway, what the Nazis did was right - and your opposition to what the Nazis did is right also. This must be impossible though, because two contradictory things cannot simultaneously be true. Plus, there's no way you could have stopped the Nazis, knowing that they were right.

They don't contradict because they are not me and I am not them! I can believe them wrong whilst they can believe the same of me. Yet another stupid assertion on your part.

If you think they are wrong, and they think you are wrong - who is really right?

Imagine if I killed you (in your world), and the judge asked me if I thought I was right for doing it. Of course I would say yes, but should the judge take my word for it? And if he disagreed, what right does he have to say that I am truly wrong, despite what I think. What makes any person's (or group's) opinion more valid than another person's (or group's) - in your world?

You beloieve what you do and you're telling me not to think critically? What a wingnut!

It's sarcasm, because you said you wouldn't think critically (in the significant cases of highest disagreement - theists).

Ah but I don't have a problem with someone believing genocide is OK (I disagree but I don't have an issue with them holding the opinion) ... I DO however have a problem with morons who claim their god is good, that is supposedly loving and kind, the source of a consistent morality, yet wipes out an entire world! Of course I couldn't actually care less because it never fucking happened anyway!

God believed what He was doing was good, so it was. Your opinion on the matter is really irrelevant, since you couldn't stop Him. Those who are guilty do not have a special right to life according to God - or to the U.S. justice system.

I have no fucking idea! Given my current morality, no!

So you took my advice on not critically thinking after all.

Because whilst my society defines what is moral, morals are not individual, I validate what I think and my conscience would rail against it.

So individuals aren't responsible for deciding what to believe? What's this? Is it your mommy and daddy that do that for you or what?

No, why would I?

Certainly because you have no reason to disagree with Hitler.

And even if we accepted he was real do you think we’d give a shit what you and your favourite a zombie Jew thought?

So you are not interested in a discussion - why are you involved now?

Only a fool would say we lock a god out that we don’t believe in.

You lock God out by denying His existence.

Er … we got a fairly fucking good idea actually and we don’t need a stupid magic-man in the sky to be a part of that explanation.

You haven't offered up a viable explanation.

Evolution is why we exist.

That doesn't explain why you exist because evolution is dependent upon the universe, and you have not explained why the universe exists. This explanation is non-viable.

[Violet]

Gah! Hey people: short, to the point, concise, posts that don't take up an entire page! If you can't manage that, use [ hide ] TEXT [ /hide ] command

---

like this

---

so that the wall of text doesn't crit someone for 112287429108491027.

Plox and tankx.

[fr0d0]

Well! At least he's not 'the most narrow minded and stubborn person' that you've 'ever met', which is me apparently

Funny, out of all the people you've known in your life online or offline, I'm apparently the most narrow minded and stubborn person you've ever met and Kyu squirms from debates more than anyone you've apparently ever known.....

My guess is that either you're being at least somewhat disingenious or you're speaking in hyperbole....

If not, my response would be, to quote yourself "Simply Wow"...just wow. You obviously haven't met many people then it seems (!) Lmfao.

EvF

Please prove to me he isn't, to me, the person who squirms from debate the most

Oh and..

You ignorant stupid-assed hypothetical theist!

..possibly I'm not ignorant, 'stupid assed' or hypothetical in that case ??? ...

---

Gah! Hey people: short, to the point, concise, posts that don't take up an entire page! If you can't manage that, use [ hide ] TEXT [ /hide ] command

---

like this

---

so that the wall of text doesn't crit someone for 112287429108491027.

Plox and tankx.

That doesn't help Sae when ppl are responding to specific points. You use hide tags when quoting large blocks of text.

[Violet]

Look in a mirror, Fr0d0? I'd say you are a tad bit more squirmy than Kyu Just based on simple observation here...

[Kyuuketsuki]

You squirm from debate more than anyone I've known and violently attack without provocation. You seek to scare people off with your impression of a hooligan. Congratulations on that.

Yet curiously I've had two recommendations for that very post, the complaint you raised was rejected (indeed complimented on), my reputation (at time of writing) is 15 whereas yours is 5 and my recommended posts (atow) is the highest in the last 24 hours so ... do you really think I give give a toss what a weasel like you thinks of my ability to debate?

Kyu

[Retorth]

So what happens when your family's interests clash with another person's/group's? Do you rig it so that your family will "win" - do you let the other group win - or do you appeal to some higher standard to settle the situation? In the latter case, where does the higher standard come from - and why should the other group listen to that standard?

If there is a clash of interests, I manage it like a mature individual. That does not include resorting to violence. I myself do not condone violence. For all the years I've been alive thus far, I've had no problems with people or groups of people with other ideologies. Besides, these are natural life occurances, to mix in society with other people. No two people are identical. Everyone has their own ways of doing things, their own opinions and styles of handling things. Religion has nothing to do with this. It's about social etiquette, patience and willingness to accept each other for our differences as well as similarities. I gladly accept you even with our differences in beliefs.

People will always die every day in the current system. I will die, you will die. I thought you were ok with death - now you're acting like you want people to live forever. That doesn't make much sense to me.

Of course we will all die. I definitely do not want to live forever. I am referring to suffering that your god appears to condone.

My question did not ask about enemies alone - go back and reread if you must. The Africans are included in the question as "strangers" - you said "I don't believe in jesus so why do I care?" and then "what about them?" - I assumed these statements to refer to both strangers and enemies. Sounds like you're going to let those strangers suffer - since you're too busy living for your family.

I never said "I do not care about strangers". If it seemed that I implyed that, I apologize. I will obviously help people around me within my power. I will always lend a helping hand whenever I can I am only human, however, so there is a limit to how far I can reach. The god that you believe in, however, is supposedly almighty.

Perfection does not require inactivity - and this argument is based upon that specifically. So, in sum, this bizarre argument falls flat rather quickly. You can't claim that a perfect God desires nothing or that He will do nothing. How would you know how perfection works anyway? This sounds like the couch-potatoe's or dead-beat's idea of perfection - just pure, inactive, irresponsible existence.

Perfection is the equivilent of equilibrium. Equilibrium requires nothing. It is equal in all ways. It is satisfied. But you claim god created man. Furthermore, he destroyed man after creating it. If that were the case, he'd be imperfect because he changes his mind.

Do you agree that a rational cause for this existence is important?

I will not accept a supernatural being as the cause for existence, unless I am provided with infallible evidence to back up the claim. It is as simple as that. I respect that you believe in something so strongly even though there is nothing to back it up except faith. You are courageous in your own right, but it still does not prove to me that god exists and that he is the cause of existence. I need to be shown undeniable evidence.

If you live for something inside this universe then you live for nothing - because it will all be destroyed according to you (it will be as though it had never existed). I am the one living for something with enduring value.

I beg to differ. I am living for what is real and solid, what I can see, feel and touch. You are living for an entity you do not even know exists for sure. You have nothing to prove that it isn't a load of crock, or do you?

[quote='ecolox']Then what is there to begin with - for you? You throw out the only option, but why would you say you exist? By the way, I can't/don't have to explain God (unless it is relevant to us)...the rational mission I can take on is explaining my own existence and discovering what I should be doing with it.

Read above. I have already explained the reason for my existence, more then once. To put it in a graphical representation, I put my eggs in a straw basket that sits on the floor, made by the hands of fellow man, rather then a floating basket made by the supernatural forces.

If you had infallible evidence that God exists - how would that effect your choice? Could God test you in the same way? I tend to think that His experiment is set up properly already - that people don't need infallible evidence to live like they know He exists. Some people want to live differently bad enough to deny His existence.

If I had infallible evidence of his existence, I would have no choice but to accept him, which I obviously would, as I said. How can he be denied if he cannot be proven in the first place? I have yet to be shown any such evidence.

[quote='ecolox']No, I don't see that at all. You have everything to lose and nothing to gain. You're coming ever closer to destruction every day - and nothing you do will ever change that - in your belief and in mine.

If by 'destruction' you mean death, then obviously yes, we are all coming close to our final day...thats obvious. We grow older by the second. No god is going to change that.

If I learned that then I would die, and that would be the end of it - just like you think will happen to you. I will have loved my family, friends, strangers, and enemies for nothing. Indeed, I will have lived for nothing - just like you

That is very unfortunate for you.

[Kyuuketsuki]

So, God is the most important thing to me - the concept guides my entire life. What is the most important thing to you?

I repeat, what's important to me (to us) us is exactly the same as what’s important to you and others … minus the religion

God, at least, created the potential for suffering, and yes, I worship God. What is the most important thing to you?

And I repeat, what a fucking bastard! See above!

A person should love enemies and strangers because they matter - creations of God. This world will never experience peace until people can do just that. People like you will kill each other off.

I don't believe in your god, I don't subscribe to its dictates or yours. Curiously more wars have been fought in the name of religion that any other thing and no wars that I am aware of have ever been fought in the name of atheism.

How do you explain your own existence in the absence of the supernatural?

Evolution ... is this some kind of example of theist stupidity, asking and re-asking the same questions? Like it or not, if my answers were what I chose to give first time round, they are not likely to change just because you keep asking them.

(Padraic) A moral relativist said that he does not believe in completely adhering to laws and local customs. If morality is societally determined then the Nazi's were right after all. If you attacked me when I came to pick up my stereo I may just expertly shoot you - in your world.

So, someone doesn't see it quite the same way I do ... what do you want? A medal? I may be better armed than you are ... shit happens!

BANG!!!! BANG!!!! Kyu the clown collapses dead, shot from afar by Eco the idiot - who then picks up the stereo and prances on home. Hoo-rah!

Kyu is wearing a tank ... Eco the idiot is crushed!

Our existence is all the evidence we really need to know that God exists. No, you're dead in this story from multiple, lethal gun shots, and I got my stereo thanks. The Nazis taught me how to shoot and think in this example.

Existence merely poses a question, it doesn't presuppose the answer and you're a pancake unable to shoot anything after the bullets bounced off my tank. Nazism and Christianity have much in common.

You think that nothing is the most important - but you argue that you live for something.

See above.

So what is the most important thing for you?

See above.

The human race will die according to you, why do you believe in delaying the inevitable? We'll both be dead by the time there is a serious effort at exploring the galaxy I bet.

This life is all I have, life is good ... why would I want to end it. Maybe so but maybe my children will see it.

Theists are known for proselytizing. The person that I was talking to claimed that proselytizing annoyed him, yet he himself was guilty of it. He was exhibiting hypocrisy. You are just failing to comprehend.

Theists are also known for being cretins ... what do you want? A medal?

No I'm not failing to understand ... you have no rights in this forum, your views carry no inherent respect, they will be critically analysed, ripped apart and discarded just like any other theists dimwit views. As they should be.

You refuse to offer up a rational explanation for your existence. The examples you quote are other people's attempts - where is yours?

I'll repeat for the terminally dim-witted ... EVOLUTION!

What would you give the most for, pursue the longest...etc? (e.g. Would you let your wife eat you if she was hungry - only you and the children were available for food?)

It's not a scenario I am interested in considering ... live with it.

Yes, it does leave much in the way of choice. You can choose to seek/follow God or you can choose to ignore God and live for yourself.

Under threat of eternal torment yeah so I repeat ... not much choice if your god was real. Fortunately there is no validatable evidence to support your sad fairy tale belief system.

This isn't a valid response. God changes everything in my life (i.e. you could never live like me without believing in God).

It is an entirely valid response, that you don't like it means sod all to me. I am a good, moral, kind, caring, considerate & loving person and I am that WITHOUT your god or any other.

Would you fight to the death trying to stop the holocaust? Why?

There are things I would fight to the death for (primarily family and friends), I do not know if the holocaust is one of them.

If you think they are wrong, and they think you are wrong - who is really right?

No idea ... I'm a moral relativist so, as far as I'm concerned, they would likely be wrong based on my conscience weighed against my society's morality. Nevertheless, being able to entertain an idea without believing it, I am able to step outside my own and my society's limiting values ... it's called intelligence, you should try it sometime!

Imagine if I killed you (in your world), and the judge asked me if I thought I was right for doing it. Of course I would say yes, but should the judge take my word for it? And if he disagreed, what right does he have to say that I am truly wrong, despite what I think. What makes any person's (or group's) opinion more valid than another person's (or group's) - in your world?

The law, based on a given society's morality (rights-based), enforced by arms ... there is no objective right or wrong in a moral sense.

It's sarcasm, because you said you wouldn't think critically (in the significant cases of highest disagreement - theists).

Sarcasm works much better if you have something you can be sarcastic about and being a theist advancing fairly stupid views you don't have a whole lot.

God believed what He was doing was good, so it was. Your opinion on the matter is really irrelevant, since you couldn't stop Him. Those who are guilty do not have a special right to life according to God - or to the U.S. justice system.

Well bully for it ... if real it would still be a tyrannical, sexist, genocidal, murdering fuck and you're right I couldn't stop it because it DOESN'T FUCKING EXIST!

I couldn't care less what your god thinks ... it doesn't exist.

I couldn't care less what your law says either ... I'm British and, although there are people from all over the globe, so is this forum!

So you took my advice on not critically thinking after all.

No ... and as to a theist thinking critically ...

So individuals aren't responsible for deciding what to believe? What's this? Is it your mommy and daddy that do that for you or what?

I see the stupid brigade are out in force again!

Morality is an ethical system, ethics are social, social means between individuals therefore it stands to reason that an individual cannot have morality; you need 2 or more people to have a moral system. What individuals have is a conscience and their actions are weighed up against a given society's morality.

Certainly because you have no reason to disagree with Hitler.

I have every reason to disagree with Hitler's actions.

So you are not interested in a discussion - why are you involved now?

This isn't discussion ... it's me smacking a theist down.

You lock God out by denying His existence.

And I repeat, only a fool would say we lock out a god out that we don’t believe in.

You haven't offered up a viable explanation.

Sigh! And I repeat ... EVOLUTION!

That doesn't explain why you exist because evolution is dependent upon the universe, and you have not explained why the universe exists. This explanation is non-viable.

Scientists are working on it ... I'm sure they will get back to us when they have an answer that is slightly better than a magic man said POOF and there is was ... DUH!!!!

Kyu

[Darwinian]

This isn't fair.

Kyu has got ecolox and EvF had got fr0d0!

Where's my Christian???