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(April 2, 2013 at 9:42 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: Thank you theists for highlighting your problems with the OP.
John V Wrote:
Where does it assert this?
And, where does it assert that saving a life is always right?
An example of this situation in the Bible is Rahab in Joshua 2. She lies in order to save the lives of two men. Joshua later spares her and her family. Further, the NT commends her for doing the right thing twice (Heb 11, James 2). So, the premises of this argument are faulty.
fr0d0 Wrote:
There is no commandment not to lie. And in your example you are coupling the righteous action with a lie. So the overarching good in your example would involve telling the lie. Your refutation is shallow beyond belief.
Undeceived Wrote:
This "disproving" only works if God commands "Lying is always wrong." If "bearing false witness" has a broad connotation that builds in intent, SDCT holds up. Even if you can prove that God commands never to lie, the existence of two wrong actions does not invalidate a theory. It merely means that whatever you do, you do something wrong--letting someone die, or lying. In a sinful world, that's not implausible. But for the life of me, I cannot imagine the scenario you're trying to put forth. Take the famous axe-murderer scenario. An axe-murderer shows up at your door and asks where your friend is hidden. To save your friend, you have to lie. But is this bearing false witness against your neighbor? No. It's merely depriving someone of true information. And ultimately, the scenario would never had arisen if the world was sinless.
Of course, all this is a defense of Strong Divine Command Theory, which says that an action is right if and only if and because God commands it. Weak Divine Command theory states that an action is right if God commands it, but not because God commands it.
It seems like all of you are saying in one form or another that the Bible doesn't say we shouldn't lie. What should we do about these verses then?
Proverbs 6:16-19
There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.
Proverbs 19:9
A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who breathes out lies will perish.
Proverbs 12:22 Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who act faithfully are his delight.
Colossians 3:9-10 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.
Psalm 101:7 No one who practices deceit shall dwell in my house; no one who utters lies shall continue before my eyes.
Ephesians 4:25
Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another.
Proverbs 24:28
Be not a witness against your neighbor without cause, and do not deceive with your lips.
Revelations 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
You've actually not brought anything against deceiving a murderer to protect others. To deceive does not have to be considered a lie. Deceiving your enemy in war is not considered a lie, at least not by anyone I've known, deception in war is done to defeat your enemy and to limit the deaths of your own troops.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
(April 2, 2013 at 9:42 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: It seems like all of you are saying in one form or another that the Bible doesn't say we shouldn't lie.
Quite the opposite.
I think the problem lies between your keyboard and your chair.
April 3, 2013 at 2:49 am (This post was last modified: April 3, 2013 at 2:50 am by FallentoReason.)
Godschild Wrote:You've actually not brought anything against deceiving a murderer to protect others. To deceive does not have to be considered a lie. Deceiving your enemy in war is not considered a lie, at least not by anyone I've known, deception in war is done to defeat your enemy and to limit the deaths of your own troops.
From this, I gather that the verses I've quoted seem to say that lying is wrong? I'm assuming this is your view on those verses because now you're trying to move the goalposts.
War is an altogether different situation to what we're dealing with. The sort of deception that is at play in wars has to do with setting up your enemy to be ambushed and what not. What I'm referring to in the OP is when you are asked for information by someone and you outright tell a lie.
fr0d0 Wrote:Quite the opposite.
I think the problem lies between your keyboard and your chair.
Nice ad hom. Now answer the question or consider those verses as saying lying is always wrong.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
Godschild Wrote:You've actually not brought anything against deceiving a murderer to protect others. To deceive does not have to be considered a lie. Deceiving your enemy in war is not considered a lie, at least not by anyone I've known, deception in war is done to defeat your enemy and to limit the deaths of your own troops.
From this, I gather that the verses I've quoted seem to say that lying is wrong? I'm assuming this is your view on those verses because now you're trying to move the goalposts.
War is an altogether different situation to what we're dealing with. The sort of deception that is at play in wars has to do with setting up your enemy to be ambushed and what not. What I'm referring to in the OP is when you are asked for information by someone and you outright tell a lie.
If your statement is the above and you stay with it, then yes if one is asked for information and does not give the right info knowing the correct info, then that would be telling a lie.
But if that is expanded on in any way other things will need to be considered. Such as the teacher who died protecting her children, you would make this hero a liar, I say this hero deceived the enemy and saved many lives, her plan worked and no lie was told, PERIOD! You need to get of your holier than thou horse and understand this, You My Friend Are Wrong in this situation. I believe we may have to nick name you Pharisee.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
Godschild Wrote:If your statement is the above and you stay with it, then yes if one is asked for information and does not give the right info knowing the correct info, then that would be telling a lie.
But if that is expanded on in any way other things will need to be considered. Such as the teacher who died protecting her children, you would make this hero a liar, I say this hero deceived the enemy and saved many lives, her plan worked and no lie was told, PERIOD! You need to get of your holier than thou horse and understand this, You My Friend Are Wrong in this situation. I believe we may have to nick name you Pharisee.
Calm down for a second. We're actually having a proper discussion for once. Let's not ruin that.
So when someone says something that is outright not true, we call that a lie. When someone does exactly this in a situation like the OP, it is called deception, even though the action itself is identical to lying?
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
If your statement is the above and you stay with it, then yes if one is asked for information and does not give the right info knowing the correct info, then that would be telling a lie.
But if that is expanded on in any way other things will need to be considered. Such as the teacher who died protecting her children, you would make this hero a liar, I say this hero deceived the enemy and saved many lives, her plan worked and no lie was told, PERIOD! You need to get of your holier than thou horse and understand this, You My Friend Are Wrong in this situation. I believe we may have to nick name you Pharisee.
Calm down for a second. We're actually having a proper discussion for once. Let's not ruin that.
So when someone says something that is outright not true, we call that a lie. When someone does exactly this in a situation like the OP, it is called deception, even though the action itself is identical to lying?
I'm not out of sorts on this, you keep insisting that a lie is a lie as the Pharisees would have. They would not consider the situation and it seemed you would not either, I know you do not believe in God, but the scriptures are not as dogmatic as you make them, remember we believe in an omniscient God who is love. The high horse and nick name was to pick some fun, it was not serious.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
(April 3, 2013 at 4:22 am)FallentoReason Wrote: Calm down for a second. We're actually having a proper discussion for once. Let's not ruin that.
So when someone says something that is outright not true, we call that a lie. When someone does exactly this in a situation like the OP, it is called deception, even though the action itself is identical to lying?
I'm not out of sorts on this, you keep insisting that a lie is a lie as the Pharisees would have. They would not consider the situation and it seemed you would not either, I know you do not believe in God, but the scriptures are not as dogmatic as you make them, remember we believe in an omniscient God who is love. The high horse and nick name was to pick some fun, it was not serious.
I'm unwilling to consider the situation? I'm enquiring about the nature of a lie, but it seems like you're unable to answer and instead have to resort to saying I'm like the Pharisees for the second time. If I'm wrong, then justify why I'm wrong i.e. answer my query.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
Mark 2:23-28 And it happened that He was passing through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples began to make their way along while picking the heads of grain. The Pharisees were saying to Him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” And He said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions became hungry; how he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for anyone to eat except the priests, and he also gave it to those who were with him?” Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Jesus puts forth the idea that god can be flexible depending on need, and is not overly rigorous in the interpretation of law. The old testament gives the impression that god was willing to overlook a great deal if it promoted his plans. So god is flexible and willing to be considerate when judging a person's deeds. Which should be a very strong reminder to any believer who tells another person that they are doomed to hellfire and that this makes them glad or gives them comfort. Maybe usurping god's judgment is one of those areas that he isn't lenient towards.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
April 3, 2013 at 7:26 am (This post was last modified: April 3, 2013 at 7:26 am by John V.)
(April 2, 2013 at 9:42 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: Thank you theists for highlighting your problems with the OP.
John V Wrote:
Where does it assert this?
And, where does it assert that saving a life is always right?
An example of this situation in the Bible is Rahab in Joshua 2. She lies in order to save the lives of two men. Joshua later spares her and her family. Further, the NT commends her for doing the right thing twice (Heb 11, James 2). So, the premises of this argument are faulty.
It seems like all of you are saying in one form or another that the Bible doesn't say we shouldn't lie.
Incorrect, at least for me. I'm saying that the Bible is against lying in general, but allows us to apply judgment and to lie if the situation requires it to save a life.
Quote:What should we do about these verses then?
Take them for what they are: general exhortations not to lie. Mature readers don't need the disclaimer "except in certain extreme life-and-death situations" to be added after each instance.
FTR, you're argument clings to the words without considering the expressed intent of the author. Jesus said everything in the Law and the Prophets comes from two commandments: to the love the Lord and to love your neighbor (Mat 22:37-40) . If you read the Scriptures apart from these, you quickly fall into legalism and scrupulosity.
