What is your alternative to abortion?

[Tex]

Desalination would be better than melting ice caps...

Rest easy...they are melting.

Correction: Desalination would be better than intentionally melting the ice caps as a water source.

[Polaris]

Socialized orphanages for parents deemed harmful to their children. Orphans here would actually receive an education unlike many of the orphanages out there presently.

[Esquilax]

Socialized orphanages for parents deemed harmful to their children. Orphans here would actually receive an education unlike many of the orphanages out there presently.

Does this even count as an alternative to abortion? I mean, unless you're willing to really expand your definition of harmful into some ridiculous territory, you're not even going to touch the problem, which is parents unable to support their children financially.

[festive1]

I can't help but think about the state run orphanages in Russia. Some are so overcrowded that babies lay in their cribs with minimal adult contact. Perhaps they've gotten better in recent years, but a few of the Russian adoptees I've personally met have permanent attachment issues from the lack of bonding they experienced as infants/toddlers. Not an ideal situation.

[Violet]

And I did not mean the soldiers who die in their profession, I meant the ones they kill. Not everyone who gets killed in a war is a soldier. How can you justify that to yourself, when you think aborting an embryo is murder?

And just out of curiosity, are you for or against death sentences?

Everyone who dies in war is a soldier. We declare civillians as such because they do not take on *active combat roles* in a war... and yet, the most effective way to win a war often is to kill a lot of infrastructure. I mean... it's great and all that they have training and weapons and formation and a chain of command and do all that fighting stuff: [b]let's just see them do all of that on an empty stomach, or without the medical/production/repair/babeh-makin facilities which are keeping them moving/entrenched.

[Gabriel Syme]

'Nabend, Herr Deutschlander

I would like to know from the religious folk some things:

By all means.

Which messures to avoid unwanted pregancies would you aprove off?

There is only ever a possibility of a pregnancy occurring when a man and a woman have sexual intercourse together.

Therefore, rationally, if a pregnancy is not desired then it is logical that the couple should not risk the possibility of one in the first place.

It is unavoidable to conclude that the first, most obvious, most effective, logical and easy means to achieving what the couple want (no pregnancy) is not to have sex (this refers to penetrative sex, obviously, but does not preclude other intimacy).

However couples do desire to have sex. In the case of where a couple want to be intimate, but do not desire a pregnancy, then they can greatly reduce the chance of pregnancy* using the Billings Ovulation Method of family planning. (essentially, the women learn how their bodies work in detail and so are aware when they are most fertile, meaning they would abstain from sex during this period).

This method has the same effectiveness as artificial contraception, but is superior because it keeps the woman fully in charge of what her own body is doing, does haven't any side effects as chemical contraceptives do and does not cause pollution (the contraceptive pill is responsible for polluting the water supply with high levels of estrogen, (female hormones), which gets there via urination and the waste-water system. This is probably why male sperm-counts are falling in countries where the 'pill' is widespread).

*It is important to note that there is no way - natural or artificial - to reliably guarantee that a pregnancy will not take place. Even layered contraception can fail. We cannot (at least currently) separate procreation from sexual intercourse. Procreation is the natural result of sexual intercourse.

Any analysis which does not acknowledge that we cannot reliably prevent pregnancy - only greatly lower the chance - is worthless.

EDIT - I should also add that, given there is always a chance of pregnancy occurring via sex, it is only sensible and logical then to restrict enjoying sex to within an environment which is able to deal with the possibility of a child; ie a stable, committed relationship with a home, regular income etc. (We used to call this "marriage".)

In a nutshell, these methods could be described as personal responsibility / accountability / maturity.

Which messures to prevent single mums from drifting into poverty would you aprove of?

My policies would not be sexist and would apply to single dads too

An effective legal system to ensure the biological parent - who is not resident - makes an appropriate regular financial contribution to the single parent who is raising the child.

Equally, the single parent would, by law, be obliged to accept such payments from the non-resident payment, to prevent unnecessary burden on the state. They would also be obliged to provide access/contact, so the other parent and child can have a relationship, if they desire. Also:

State support from a broad welfare system encompassing social housing, welfare / benefit payments and healthcare.

If people were seen to misuse their money - eg buy cigarettes and cable tv, instead of baby food and nappys, then they would be given packages of food & items instead of money, (until such a time where they can be responsible and adult with their money).

Generous state support in the provision of childcare, to allow single parents to work.

Tax bonuses/perks for working parents who have children.

State support for training / education of low-qualified individuals who are parents, such that they may improve their prospects to increase their chance of getting a job, in order to support their child(ren).

Various legislation obliging businesses to be parent-friendly: for example, provision of flexible working patterns / hours, provision of crèche facilities at work etc etc.

Which mesures to prevent teen preagnacies would you aprove of?

See my answers to your first question about preventing unwanted pregnancy in general.

Additionally, most teenagers are still subject to their parents rules / discipline - and may even be prohibited by law from having sex, depending on their age - so both parental discipline and the law are additional factors in the case of teenagers.

Which messures to avoid parents from drifting into poverty would you aprove of?

Pretty much as described above in the first question about preventing poverty.

Which messures to ensure that a child does not become a burden on the mothers carreer and life would you aprove of?

This question is invalid.

It is wrong and invalid for a mother to present her child as being a burden on her career and life.

She was one of the people who created the child, and so the child is her responsibility (till they grow to be an adult). If she wants to be taken seriously as an adult and a member of society, she must be accountable for her choices/behaviour and live up to her responsibilities.

The concept of social responsibility is fully bound up with the concept of social rights. Having rights entails having responsibility - you cannot have one without the other.

Ergo, if you want rights, then you must be responsible for what you do with them. This balance represents the pact between each individual citizen and the country they live in. Its called "civilisation".

Even if someone does manage to shirk some social responsibility - and some people do - then they are still failing in their moral responsibilities, which is no less serious or unacceptable.

Which messures for unwanted preagnancies would you aprove of?

Are you asking - what is it acceptable for a woman to do, if she finds herself pregnant and doesn't want to be?

There is nothing for her to do. There is no moral / responsible option other than to take responsibility and carry the child to term. (9 months isn't really that long a time).

Yes, a woman is in charge of her own body and can make her own choices - but the presence of the unwanted pregnancy is the direct result of her performance in this regard. This must be recognised. As must the fact that, while a woman has domain over her own body, she does not have domain over the new life she has helped created.

Bummer eh? But, hey, that's what being a grown-up is like sometimes!

As I said above, you cant have rights (to have sex etc) without having the responsibility for what comes of it.

And finaly: at which age is it alright to watch a person die or kill a person?

EDIT - I changed this bit as I thought you were talking about death videos on line, but its actually euthanasia - sorry for the misunderstanding.

Euthanasia is never acceptable, for the same reasons as abortion - human life must always be valued and defended. The very second that position weakens, then matters develop - the progress, transformation and reality of the abortion industry since roe v wade demonstrates that resoundingly clearly.

[Tex]

Hey, we got a Catholic on board now. We'll argue contraception at some point. =)

But, btw, he's mentioning euthanasia, not the snuff vids.

[Gabriel Syme]

Hey, we got a Catholic on board now. We'll argue contraception at some point. =)

Hiya tex,

Have a read:

"Humanae Vitae"

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_v...ae_en.html

This document, articulating the Churchs opposition to artificial birth control, was issued in 1968. It makes very interesting reading to compare todays society and culture, with what the document taught regarding the effect on society of artificial contraception becoming the norm.

See here for an analysis, looking back at the document with 45 years of experience since:

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/...-vitaei-28

But, btw, he's mentioning euthanasia, not the snuff vids.

Thanks a lot! My bad! I went back and changed my response to that bit.

Nice to meet ya
Cheers
GS

[Tex]

THREAD HIJACK

I actually go to Catholic university, so I've not only read that but done a project or two on it =)

The part I disagree with is #9. The "fulness" of love does not require the intent of procreation. Therefore, intentionally not procreating is ok. However, I still agree that the purpose of marriage is for love to overflow, but not that it must overflow irrationally.

[Darkstar]

Alternative to abortion:

---

---