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RE: Do I sin because of Adam?
April 3, 2013 at 5:31 pm
(April 3, 2013 at 4:00 pm)Godschild Wrote: (April 3, 2013 at 9:56 am)CapnAwesome Wrote: I have a hard time joining these discussions because I have a hard time taking seriously anyone who believes in a literal Adam. That's one disadvantage that Atheists will always have against the religious, they start out pretty much knowing where we stand. On the contrary their beliefs are all the fuck over the place. Would the Theists in this thread be so kind as to indulge me whether or not they believe Adam in Genesis was a literal person?
I do, why not?
Do you honestly not know the arguments against a literal Adam? You've survived to adulthood, spent a significant amount of time of these forums and not been exposed to them? I can do nothing but repeat what you've doubtlessly heard dozens of times. If it hasn't sunk in by now I really don't think I can phrase it well enough to convince you.
You should at least do the favor of not pretending that there is no good reason is not believe in the literal Adam. Every area of science argues against it, from Geology to Biology to Anatomy. Fields of research all contest the creation story, and you believe there is no good reason to discount it.
Just be honest admit that the evidence is against it and you believe it regardless because of your faith.
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RE: Do I sin because of Adam?
April 3, 2013 at 5:50 pm
(April 3, 2013 at 5:19 pm)Darkstar Wrote: If I play the "god made us that way" card, will you play the "the perfect product deliberately broke itself" card? Would it help to note that god purposely allowed the devil himself to influence those who did not know right from wrong? (How would "perfect" be defined here? Is it simply the absence of sin?) Sorry if this turns out to be a strawman, but I've seen the argument take this turn many times before.
I'll play the "God made us that way with breakability inbuilt" card, which is the only way love works (The devil automatically gets a hand), unfortunately for some. Perfect as in God, or inhuman aspiration would be sinless, yeah.
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RE: Do I sin because of Adam?
April 3, 2013 at 5:57 pm
(This post was last modified: April 3, 2013 at 5:57 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
The only way that love works? Does love work, and what about this way makes it the only way that loves work (if this were actually the case).
But I mean hey, it sounds great - you used the word "love" after all..... 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Do I sin because of Adam?
April 3, 2013 at 5:59 pm
(April 3, 2013 at 5:50 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: I'll play the "God made us that way with breakability inbuilt" card, which is the only way love works (The devil automatically gets a hand), unfortunately for some. Perfect as in God, or inhuman aspiration would be sinless, yeah.
Did god create Adam, Eve, the angels, etc. at random, or did he know what he was making? (There is a follow up question)
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RE: Do I sin because of Adam?
April 3, 2013 at 6:12 pm
(This post was last modified: April 3, 2013 at 6:17 pm by Godscreated.)
(April 3, 2013 at 4:42 pm)CleanShavenJesus Wrote: (April 3, 2013 at 4:00 pm)Godschild Wrote: I do, why not?
So you're a creationist.
Yes I am.
(April 3, 2013 at 5:31 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: (April 3, 2013 at 4:00 pm)Godschild Wrote: I do, why not?
Do you honestly not know the arguments against a literal Adam? You've survived to adulthood, spent a significant amount of time of these forums and not been exposed to them? I can do nothing but repeat what you've doubtlessly heard dozens of times. If it hasn't sunk in by now I really don't think I can phrase it well enough to convince you.
You should at least do the favor of not pretending that there is no good reason is not believe in the literal Adam. Every area of science argues against it, from Geology to Biology to Anatomy. Fields of research all contest the creation story, and you believe there is no good reason to discount it.
Just be honest admit that the evidence is against it and you believe it regardless because of your faith.
Show me without a doubt that Adam did not exist, I have no doubt that God exist. You are the one claiming he did not, I just answered your question. Before you post it, no I can not prove to you God exist, actually that is not my responsibility, that work belongs to God.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Do I sin because of Adam?
April 3, 2013 at 6:45 pm
(April 3, 2013 at 9:16 am)Drich Wrote: You sin because your a slave to it. Meaning because of Adam you have been able to identify it and acknoweledge that what you do is sin. Our 'freewill' comes into play when we choose to seek attonement for sin.
So you are saying that, if adam hadn't eaten the apple then I would still be sinning, I just wouldn't know it?
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RE: Do I sin because of Adam?
April 3, 2013 at 6:52 pm
(This post was last modified: April 3, 2013 at 6:53 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
One of the better readings would suggest that the sinning - in some sinful thing -is not in the act, but in the knowledge of the act. The apple, and the tree, and the knowledge imparted was knowledge of the law, before which the authors imagined a world in which humans were running around blissfully in a garden completely ignorant of law, of good and evil - therefore not culpable. Sinning isn't so much doing, as it is knowing.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Do I sin because of Adam?
April 3, 2013 at 6:57 pm
(April 3, 2013 at 6:12 pm)Godschild Wrote: Show me without a doubt that Adam did not exist, I have no doubt that God exist. You are the one claiming he did not, I just answered your question. Before you post it, no I can not prove to you God exist, actually that is not my responsibility, that work belongs to God.
Like I said before, that is faith. You don't need that standard of evidence for everything. Do you believe that Muhammad split that moon?
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RE: Do I sin because of Adam?
April 3, 2013 at 7:04 pm
(April 3, 2013 at 6:52 pm)Rhythm Wrote: One of the better readings would suggest that the sinning - in some sinful thing -is not in the act, but in the knowledge of the act. The apple, and the tree, and the knowledge imparted was knowledge of the law, before which the authors imagined a world in which humans were running around blissfully in a garden completely ignorant of law, of good and evil - therefore not culpable. Sinning isn't so much doing, as it is knowing.
VERY interesting concept!
So evil is only evil if you KNOW it is evil. Otherwise, it is just another act with NO MORALITY ATTACHED TO IT!!
So actions, by themselves, are not morally wrong. It is the knowledge of those actions that makes them wrong.
Therefore, we can infer from that concept that there is no objective morality. All morality is SUBJECT to knowledge of evil.
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RE: Do I sin because of Adam?
April 3, 2013 at 7:07 pm
(April 3, 2013 at 5:59 pm)Darkstar Wrote: Did god create Adam, Eve, the angels, etc. at random, or did he know what he was making? (There is a follow up question)
There is most likely meaning in the order, and in the choice of players. The word "making" would be a literary tool.
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