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Ohio School Takes Down Jesus Portrait
#21
RE: Ohio School Takes Down Jesus Portrait
(April 5, 2013 at 12:44 am)Stimbo Wrote: Church and State separation aside, I don't see much inherently wrong with a portrait in and of itself. I mean, it's not like anyone knows what the bastard 'actually' looked like; they could have said it was a picture of anyone.

Eh, maybe. I see that as a bit like claiming a two foot long cross on a classroom wall is fine because it may be representing the cross of someone other than Jesus, or because it doesn't look like that cross would have it isn't a religious symbol and endorsement of religion. The portrait is strongly associated with Jesus and most people would identify the face as being his whatever they captioned it as. I don't think anything can be inherantly wrong with a number of colours arranged in a particular fashion, of course, and other portraits could be fine.

And please do tell me if I completely missed the point of your post.
Ponders too much; thinks too little.
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#22
RE: Ohio School Takes Down Jesus Portrait
(April 5, 2013 at 12:17 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: I'm against annoying do-gooders up to no good...of any stripe.

Like people trying to deny rape victims access to abortion services.
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#23
RE: Ohio School Takes Down Jesus Portrait
Does it really matter if there's a picture of Jesus on the wall?
-Yes, if our laws matter, it does.-

Who does it really hurt? No one. Absolutely no one.
- You, actually. If the government is willing to violate that law, to be seen endorsing one faith over another you'll have little ground to stand on when the school goes islamic, or satanist, or what have you, in other words..it will have shown that it is willing to violate your rights, to violate it's own laws-

So the why not just take it down? you know...go along to get along.
-Why put it up?-

But why should you have to cave in to some unreasonable bully. Why don't they just go along to get along?
-There is no "going along to get along" here, it is a matter of law, a law that protects you.-

Secularism is about not having religious tests for elected officials nor declaring Methodism the official religion of Illinois, nor taxing people to fund religious causes. This kind of nonsense has nothing to do with being secular. It's just being a busy body and intentionally trying to poke believers in the eye.
-Secularism is the principle of separation of government institutions, and the persons mandated to represent the State, from religious institutions and religious dignitaries. So, it's a bit more than not having tests or taxes-to-fund.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#24
RE: Ohio School Takes Down Jesus Portrait
Schools in the catholic states of Germany and in Austria have crosses in the classrooms.
Often also in public buildings.
Nobody seems to care though, not even I care.

I guess with 40% of the population being atheist, some may think that it would be nitpicking, but I guess most simply dont care.
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#25
RE: Ohio School Takes Down Jesus Portrait
Chad:

OK. On the other hand, I think if you give antisecularists an inch, they'll take a mile. There are examples of these kinds of displays in small towns all over the country. The courts have ruled on the matter, and the displays stay up because school officials are confident no one will have the balls to stand up for the law in their 99.9% Christian podunk community.

And there would be a national storm of shit if one of those towns was found to have a similar display for a Wiccan.

(April 5, 2013 at 12:26 pm)The Germans are coming Wrote: Schools in the catholic states of Germany and in Austria have crosses in the classrooms.
Often also in public buildings.
Nobody seems to care though, not even I care.

I guess with 40% of the population being atheist, some may think that it would be nitpicking, but I guess most simply dont care.

The USA is explicitly secular with a Constitional guarantee the government won't interfere in religion. Without that, it's meh. With that, it's 'we don't care about our own laws'.
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#26
RE: Ohio School Takes Down Jesus Portrait
As someone else pointed out to me, hanging a portrait here, a cross there, a Bible on the desk over there - is a form of a gang marking its turf. Just want to let everyone know, Christians were here -- like taggers.
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#27
RE: Ohio School Takes Down Jesus Portrait
(April 5, 2013 at 12:25 pm)Rhythm Wrote: -Secularism is the principle of separation of government institutions, and the persons mandated to represent the State, from religious institutions and religious dignitaries. So, it's a bit more than not having tests or taxes-to-fund.
But that's not what you want, is it. What you want is to prevent any so-called "state representatives" from expressing their own personal religious convictions while performing a state function. If a teacher wears a cross to work does that violate separation of church and state? Does that mean he or she is promoting a state religion? Eventually you'll say that a Jewish teacher cannot wear a yamaka or that building commissioners cannot wear the hijab at ribbon cutting ceremonies. Where does it end?

(April 5, 2013 at 12:26 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: ...On the other hand, I think if you give antisecularists an inch, they'll take a mile.
Agreed. I don't like bible-banging do-gooders either.
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#28
RE: Ohio School Takes Down Jesus Portrait
I want to prevent any state representative from allowing his religion to influence his policymaking. Full stop. It starts and ends with a separation of church and state. A picture of a god on the wall of a public school is cut and dry.

I don't recall anyone in that story (or anywhere) marching through the school ripping jewelry off women's breasts, or hats off peoples heads. Again, you're diving into the martyr complex. Peddle it elsewhere.

(and I want to ask you something directly, about my last post, did I adequately explain to you how this separation protects -you-? If I didn't, I'm going to have another go at it.)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#29
RE: Ohio School Takes Down Jesus Portrait
(April 5, 2013 at 12:26 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: The USA is explicitly secular with a Constitional guarantee the government won't interfere in religion. Without that, it's meh. With that, it's 'we don't care about our own laws'.

every damn nation (except fot those of the crazy desert people, some buddists and a few others) is secular.

look here:

Blue - secular
red - not secular
grey - no data

[Image: Secularmap.PNG]



But in a lot of cases I guess some people simply dont care. Here in Europe we simply dont have this polarised debate as you americans have and we are not constantly at each others throats over the issue.
so I guess, no one cares.

edit:

that map is inacurate! In switzerland the states decide individualy without being bothered by the federal goverment if they want to seperate religion and state.
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#30
RE: Ohio School Takes Down Jesus Portrait
(April 5, 2013 at 12:40 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I want to prevent any state representative from allowing his religion to influence his policymaking.
So according to you its okay to be religious as long as you don't act on your beliefs. That sounds pretty extreme to me.
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