A challenge about women and marriage in Islam

[Baalzebutt]

Out of curiosity, what punishment is given to the man who impregnated the nine-year-old in question?

I'm waiting for the answer to this.

A new wife and hearty congratulations all around?

[Violet]

So would it not be simpler just to outlaw sex with 9 year olds? There are a lot more adults who want to sexually abuse 9 year olds out there than there are 9 year olds wanting to have sex, I'm guessing.

Would it not be simpler just to stop voting for presidents in the united states, and to just allow a despot to take care of everything however he or she wills it? Of course it would be... but should we do everything because it is simple... or would that oversimplifying things?

I would have thought, rather, that there aren't a lot more adults who want to sexually *abuse* a nine year old than there are 9 year olds wanting to have sex. Even in BDSM, I wouldn't say that doms/masters necessarily want to abuse their sub/slave... most of them still want their partner(s) to enjoy the what they take.

You're looking at the subset of the population that gets off on *hurting* people, only some of which happens to intersect with pedophilia. I mean... a guess is a guess, do you happen to have any data to suggest that what you're saying is true?

[quoteThe options are basically put in place a law which allows men to marry 9 year olds which has been proven to also give men much more of an opportunity to abuse 9 year olds, this is for the benefit of who? Those horny 9 year olds that people on this forum seem to believe exist who are mature and adult enough to have sex and give birth perfectly fine.[/quote]

And marriage isn't in general proven to give people much more of an opportunity to abuse their fellows? I don't buy that this specific example is indicative of anything different than what marriage typically consists of. For every example you cited of abuse of a 9 year old in marriage, there is an example of the same done to a 20 year old, a thirty year old, a forty year old, and more.

Binding two people together legally, socio-politically, financially, familially, and physically will always be a strain.

And paul, you can have sex without getting preggo. I know, because I do it all the time! (and if I had a proper set of ovaries, I would use condoms and birth control, and if we have a case of some severe stupidity or bad luck: abortion exists). I've told you this before, and I'll tell you it again: the only thing stopping nine year olds from fucking each other... is their parents/teachers/guardians and the like. And it's not even about getting pregnant (usually): it's about satisfying the desires of their bodies

But don't tell me I'm arguing for nine year olds giving birth... I've said that some of them clearly can, but I've never backed off from saying that they probably shouldn't.

Or do you think just maybe it might be that sex offenders who want to have sex with 9 year olds whether they are willing or not would benefit more from this law?

Depends on the person, and whether they are a sex offender, or only branded as such because of the illegality of having sex with a 9 year old. If the latter, it would be very beneficial for them indeed, and for the 9 year old with them too. If the former... then *they are still going to jail* regardless of the new legality.

Is the argument actually that I'm being unfair in supporting a law because it forces 9 year olds to not have sex even if they want it?

I don't know, are you blind, or just obtuse?

9 year olds *do* have sex... but it's usually with someone accessible, who they are 'close' with. Often this is something like their 'best friend', a pet, a sibling/cousin about the same age, a teacher, an aunt/uncle or close family friend, and more rarely, a parent. Seriously, if they want it, and their guardians deem it as 'safe': they should certainly be allowed to go for it (other party willing, of course).

Remember this isn't about whether or not some 9 year olds should have sex it's about whether an adult man should legally be able to marry a 9 year old girl.

Noooo, you don't say?

How about an adult woman legally being able to marry a 9 year old boy? Is that different?

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Also, if the child refuse. This is usually disgraces the family's name. The child is then ostracized from their family or even killed. And, most children at this age barely understand the concept of sex. I also do not see the child not being rape in some societies for denying sex.

Welcome to coercion 101, where we teach Dragonetti all about coercion. I wonder if he'll learn anything, or if he'll say more silly things.

And if the child is killed, that's typically breaking the law, and the killer(s) go away for a good while

I also do not see a woman not being raped in some societies for denying sex. Can't argue with arguments like that, mang.

The child is treated as property, as the groom usually has to pay the bride's father. No one should be treated as property, female or male.

All said and done. This is fucked up!

Well that's no different than usual, then: children are property... with a few, ahhh, usage restrictions. Yup, nobody should raise children.

Yeah, I'll say that their system of it is pretty grody. Infact, it's pretty grody when they do this with adult women too. And men, if they're a little feisty. Why peeps insist on judging the systems a culture uses only within its cultural context is beyond me... but maybe they're just simple

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Correct, and with dowry... This is called human trafficking.

Because Islam is totally to blame for that, amiright?

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You say beating happens in western countries, it doesn't happen within the law.

Soooo... when are you going to illustrate to us that beating can suddenly happen within the law if an adult marries a child?

[paulpablo]

And marriage isn't in general proven to give people much more of an opportunity to abuse their fellows?

Precisely so why expose 9 year olds to this.

[Violet]

Also I've been searching and I can't find one instance of a 9, 10, 11 12 13 or even 14 year old being married in america.

Go back a century, you'll find plenty of 14 year olds married in America Two, and you'll likely find them married at 12.

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And marriage isn't in general proven to give people much more of an opportunity to abuse their fellows?

Precisely so why expose 9 year olds to this.

Why not instead make the argument: why explose *anyone* to this?

9, 10, 43, 23428452... it doesn't matter, abuse is abuse regardless of age, and independent of age.

[paulpablo]

9 year olds *do* have sex... but it's usually with someone accessible, who they are 'close' with. Often this is something like their 'best friend', a pet, a sibling/cousin about the same age, a teacher, an aunt/uncle or close family friend, and more rarely, a parent. Seriously, if they want it, and their guardians deem it as 'safe': they should certainly be allowed to go for it (other party willing, of course).

No they shouldn't be allowed to have sex with a cousin because of interbreeding issues, teachers for so many moral reasons that a teacher is in a position of authority and is abusing their power, same with auntie and uncle for both previous reasons, or a pet because that's animal abuse.
Even if their parents think this is fine then their parents shouldn't be allowed to have children.

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At a later age people are more likely to have formed their personality fully, I don't know of anyone who was as wise or as mature at 9 years old as they are now.

Put it into context when I was 9 i was intimidated by teenagers.

Now think about a 9 year old girl, is she going to be intimidated by adults?
What about an adult who is married to her and tells her to shut up and not tell anyone after he abuses her?
So why put them in a position to be married to an adult when as you have pointed out this puts them in a position which is likely to result in abuse?

[Tonus]

9 year olds *do* have sex... but it's usually with someone accessible, who they are 'close' with. Often this is something like their 'best friend', a pet, a sibling/cousin about the same age, a teacher, an aunt/uncle or close family friend, and more rarely, a parent.

And more commonly... a Catholic priest! *rimshot*

[paulpablo]

Also I do have the handicap in this debate of simply not being willing to type into my google search engine "do 9 year olds want sex"

It's a ridiculous argument anyway, I can use statistics posted by Muslim Scholar though which actually defeat his own purpose as they say 62 percent of 10 year olds who had sex said they were persuaded by force or threats to have sex, the trend in the statistics is as they got older the less likely they were to have been coerced into it, therefore just as a guess I'd be willing to bet the percentage of 9 year olds who did have sex and were coerced was even higher than 62 percent.

[Kayenneh]

A new wife and hearty congratulations all around?

That, and a tight pus..


Oh, I will not finish that sentence.

[Violet]

9 year olds *do* have sex... but it's usually with someone accessible, who they are 'close' with. Often this is something like their 'best friend', a pet, a sibling/cousin about the same age, a teacher, an aunt/uncle or close family friend, and more rarely, a parent. Seriously, if they want it, and their guardians deem it as 'safe': they should certainly be allowed to go for it (other party willing, of course).

No they shouldn't be allowed to have sex with a cousin because of interbreeding issues, teachers for so many moral reasons that a teacher is in a position of authority and is abusing their power, same with auntie and uncle for both previous reasons, or a pet because that's animal abuse.

Interbreeding issues? Oh... you mean like the fact that it's no more harmful to a child than if the woman who bears the child is 40 or older?

Abusing their power? And here I thought that was called doing your job: teaching.

When you're nine, and your animals talk to you... you don't really see it as animal abuse. At least, that's what I'm guessing, from watching two of my nieces manhandle (and in one case, throw) their animals. Subjective morality, dawg.

Even if their parents think this is fine then their parents shouldn't be allowed to have children.

Why that's a roit hoity toity statement you've made roit there.

Heaven forbid you ever become a despot

At a later age people are more likely to have formed their personality fully, I don't know of anyone who was as wise or as mature at 9 years old as they are now.

Nobody ever forms their personality fully (unless you count their person as 'fully developed' the moment before they die, which I could understand and agree with), and I don't know of anyone wise today who wasn't wiser when they were nine. The less you know, the wiser you grow!

Put it into context when I was 9 i was intimidated by teenagers.

Put it into context... when I was four, I was proposing marriage to a 20-something german lass. Never developed any fear of people older than me, in spite of abuses, in spite of accidents, in spite of bullying... just not a fearful sort of character, yknow?

But I can't watch horror for shit... and need cuddles afterwards :X

Now think about a 9 year old girl, is she going to be intimidated by adults?

Unless the adults or her parents/somesuch give her reason to be intimidated? I mean... children are fucking brats. You give them a command, they answer your command with not following your command, and the only way to get them to understand their place is to demonstrate that might makes right

What about an adult who is married to her and tells her to shut up and not tell anyone after he abuses her?

Oh, you mean like most abuse victims who aren't nine? Let's see... how much of that gets reported again-oh right!

Age is relevant in this situation... how?

So why put them in a position to be married to an adult when as you have pointed out this puts them in a position which is likely to result in abuse?

Why put *anyone* in a position to be married if we're worried about abuse this much? DOWN WITH THE INSTITUTION, MAN!

Time for the counter example... why not put them in a position to be married to an adult when this puts them in a position likely to bring easy wealth to them, good education to them, safety to them, security to them, and an emotionally/sexually positive environment?

After all... isn't that what marriage is all about, and the reason peasants adopted it from the aristocracy?

[paulpablo]

Age is relevant to the situation because 9 year olds are easier to intimidate and abuse.

The statics shows by Muslim Scholar show the younger a child is the less likely they are to have sex but those who have sex are more likely to be persuaded into it by force or threats.

And these are the statistics provided by the man who is supporting child marriage unbelievably.

And yes having sex with an animal is still animal abuse whichever way you look at it.