On Non-belief

[FallentoReason]

There's a subtlety that you're not picking up on. If God is 'omniscious' (has the 3 omnis as attributes) then he is capable of making us know beyond doubt that the Bible is true. What we do about this knowledge is a whole different story, as you rightly pointed out how the Bible says demons know God exists but they still rebel.

God could give us total knowledge that the bible is true, and obviously he is not. My first guess would be because the bible isn't necessary for belief. Even if Moses wrote the Pentateuch (earliest), that was around 1400 BC. People before him believed and non-Jews believed. The necessary knowledge for salvation is written in the bible, but what is written is also evident outside of the bible.

It is not evident in everyday life that a Jewish apocalyptic preacher died a most inhumane death, and that I should believe such an atrocity was done for me, that I should believe this so that I might have a chance at a concept of eternal bliss which also is not evident in every day life. It is not evident that burning bushes talk, that YHWH's booming voice is heard every now and again, that water can be split with a staff, that demons cause sicknesses and that life on earth is capable of surviving an entire 24 hours without the earth's rotation.

I would suggest God do a little more than what he has, because the necessary knowledge for salvation sounds closer to science fiction than the everyday experiences we have with reality. Such an incompetent attempt at ensuring humanity knows the Absolute Truths of the Cosmos has lead to billions upon billions of souls roasting in eternal damnation simply because some of them never had the opportunity to know that the dubious events of 2000 years ago in a Jewish community were the reflection of absolute truths about reality and beyond, thus never giving them the chance at eternal bliss.

The non-belief of today is a problem to the concept of a just and loving god.

[Neo-Scholastic]

I would suggest God do a little more than what he has, because the necessary knowledge for salvation sounds closer to science fiction than the everyday experiences we have with reality.

Science fiction was never that good...Greg Bear and Philip K. Dick, excluded.

Such an incompetent attempt at ensuring humanity knows the Absolute Truths of the Cosmos has lead to billions...in...damnation simply because some of them never had the opportunity to know ...

Problem of the Heathens?

[FallentoReason]

Such an incompetent attempt at ensuring humanity knows the Absolute Truths of the Cosmos has lead to billions...in...damnation simply because some of them never had the opportunity to know ...

Problem of the Heathens?

There's a name for it? Always something new to research!

[Godscreated]

what?!
I have only one requirement of this god thing: show itself (to me and everyone else on the planet) like it allegedly did in the text. As long as it doesn't, the text and related tales are considered fiction, just like many many texts we have available nowadays.

As long as belief is a requirement, it sounds like man-made story and all we're being asked is to believe the accounts of other people... and that is something I'll never do, when related to any god thing.

At some point in the future He will, soon IMO, when He does it will be to late for those who have rejected Him. They will wish He had waited longer, for those of us who have accepted Him well we are ready anytime. God has made appearances at the Genesis, while forming Israel as His people, then when Christ was born, these appearances were roughly 2000 years apart, it's been 2000 years, so who knows could be soon.

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This is really good for most Christian groups, but knowledge does not lead to salvation. That heresy is called "gnosticism" and was the merge of Platonic philosophy and Christianity.

Chad falls for most of it =p

However, non-gnostic Christians do not believe that salvation comes from knowledge. In fact, the bible says that the demons know God exists, but they are obviously not good.

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There's a subtlety that you're not picking up on. If God is 'omniscious' (has the 3 omnis as attributes) then he is capable of making us know beyond doubt that the Bible is true. What we do about this knowledge is a whole different story, as you rightly pointed out how the Bible says demons know God exists but they still rebel.

Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnibenevolent, you say three above, yet during your time here you've claimed these four. Since you have said three omnis why do you use four, do you believe there is one that's not an attribute, or have you included a fourth to suit your arguments.
The angels rebelled due to the fact they had a choice to believe God or believe evil, they chose evil and now have no chance at redemption, a high price for knowing God then rejecting Him.

[Tex]

It is not evident in everyday life that a Jewish apocalyptic preacher died a most inhumane death, and that I should believe such an atrocity was done for me, that I should believe this so that I might have a chance at a concept of eternal bliss which also is not evident in every day life. It is not evident that burning bushes talk, that YHWH's booming voice is heard every now and again, that water can be split with a staff, that demons cause sicknesses and that life on earth is capable of surviving an entire 24 hours without the earth's rotation.

And no knowledge of these things grants salvation. These aren't necessary things to know. No knowledge grants salvation. Ever. The reason we have them recorded is because they are able to strengthen, but they themselves do not save.

I would suggest God do a little more than what he has, because the necessary knowledge for salvation sounds closer to science fiction than the everyday experiences we have with reality. Such an incompetent attempt at ensuring humanity knows the Absolute Truths of the Cosmos has lead to billions upon billions of souls roasting in eternal damnation simply because some of them never had the opportunity to know that the dubious events of 2000 years ago in a Jewish community were the reflection of absolute truths about reality and beyond, thus never giving them the chance at eternal bliss.

No knowledge grants salvation. Native Americans before Columbus still have a chance for salvation, as does all mankind.

[FallentoReason]

Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnibenevolent, you say three above, yet during your time here you've claimed these four. Since you have said three omnis why do you use four, do you believe there is one that's not an attribute, or have you included a fourth to suit your arguments.

Never did I refer to Omnipresence or even hint at it... you thinking that I did really emphasizes your incapability to successfully give a refutation.

The angels rebelled due to the fact they had a choice to believe God or believe evil, they chose evil and now have no chance at redemption, a high price for knowing God then rejecting Him.

...I agree..? Again, no refutation to be found!

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It is not evident in everyday life that a Jewish apocalyptic preacher died a most inhumane death, and that I should believe such an atrocity was done for me, that I should believe this so that I might have a chance at a concept of eternal bliss which also is not evident in every day life. It is not evident that burning bushes talk, that YHWH's booming voice is heard every now and again, that water can be split with a staff, that demons cause sicknesses and that life on earth is capable of surviving an entire 24 hours without the earth's rotation.

And no knowledge of these things grants salvation. These aren't necessary things to know. No knowledge grants salvation. Ever. The reason we have them recorded is because they are able to strengthen, but they themselves do not save.

Yes, agreed hence why God is required to make the claims of Christianity true beyond doubt so that everyone has a chance at eternal life by then putting trust in this truth.

I would suggest God do a little more than what he has, because the necessary knowledge for salvation sounds closer to science fiction than the everyday experiences we have with reality. Such an incompetent attempt at ensuring humanity knows the Absolute Truths of the Cosmos has lead to billions upon billions of souls roasting in eternal damnation simply because some of them never had the opportunity to know that the dubious events of 2000 years ago in a Jewish community were the reflection of absolute truths about reality and beyond, thus never giving them the chance at eternal bliss.

No knowledge grants salvation. Native Americans before Columbus still have a chance for salvation, as does all mankind.

How does that work?

[pocaracas]

what?!
I have only one requirement of this god thing: show itself (to me and everyone else on the planet) like it allegedly did in the text. As long as it doesn't, the text and related tales are considered fiction, just like many many texts we have available nowadays.

As long as belief is a requirement, it sounds like man-made story and all we're being asked is to believe the accounts of other people... and that is something I'll never do, when related to any god thing.

At some point in the future He will, soon IMO, when He does it will be to late for those who have rejected Him. They will wish He had waited longer, for those of us who have accepted Him well we are ready anytime. God has made appearances at the Genesis, while forming Israel as His people, then when Christ was born, these appearances were roughly 2000 years apart, it's been 2000 years, so who knows could be soon.

[yoda voice]Always in the future, it is...
Always soon it is, in the believers' view [/yoda]

Why will it be too late? It's not like it was too late for the people who formed Israel, nor for Moses...
And you are ready for what exactly?
And how came you about this knowledge?... or did it stem only from your view of some "periodical" appearance of this god thing?

If there is such a thing as a god, and it wants me to acknowledge its existence (as you believers claim it does), then I await its introduction, just as it introduced itself to those biblical characters. Until then, I see the god thing as a story in a book.

This is non-belief: not accepting what you people say nor what is written in some book about some incredible, supernatural entity, as representative of reality.
If the entity is real, then let it step forth and show itself to all. While it only shows itself to some people's minds, it will be dismissed as hallucination or similar.

Will you keep threatening me with those future comings of the unsubstantiated deity or just keep to your deceitful (or deceived?) tongue to yourself?

[Esquilax]

At some point in the future He will, soon IMO, when He does it will be to late for those who have rejected Him. They will wish He had waited longer, for those of us who have accepted Him well we are ready anytime. God has made appearances at the Genesis, while forming Israel as His people, then when Christ was born, these appearances were roughly 2000 years apart, it's been 2000 years, so who knows could be soon.

Hey GC, you mind telling us all why your god is so hooked on people believing in him before they have a good reason to? Why's he being so bratty?

[Neo-Scholastic]

At some point in the future He will [show himself]...who knows could be soon.

Or he's already come...in, oh, say 1757 A.D. =-)

[archangle]

At some point in the future He will [show himself]...who knows could be soon.

Or he's already come...in, oh, say 1757 A.D. =-)

He never "came" and he never left. The great "I am". The one thing that Christ showed us is that the "you" in the body only seems time dependant. But that is only because the definition of "I" is off. With a distorted "I" we have a distorted "him". Clean that mirror up my son.