If Not Hell then what?

[pocaracas]

How on Earth would you have come across such wondrous knowledge?

A/S/K

Not a very full/fool proof method of acquiring knowledge, is it?

In case you missed it, here's something to wrap your head around (I wrote this piece of text a few days ago to GC):

Let me see if I get this straight, GC...
You get the info from other people that there is a divine entity which is invisible, untouchable and, basically, has no measurable physical interaction with our world, but it's out there, somewhere. Those other people also tell you that this entity does interact with our world through people's emotions, feelings and whatnot...
You take this information about this entity, accept it as trustworthy and proceed to confirm this information with a book the same people present to you.

Your mind then accepts the existence of the entity as real and proceeds to interpret some of your "emotions, feelings and whatnot" as an interaction of this entity within you.

You then proceed to let us know about this entity, in the hopes, I guess, that we find that information trustworthy, and go through the same process you went through...

Did I miss something?
I must have, because I fail to see where the entity showed to you that it is real...
It doesn't seem to present itself to human beings through a means other than previous suggestion induced by other human beings... and knowing that the human mind can fool itself using this mechanism, we assume you are under this very mental mechanism of self-delusion.

Has any of those billions who have already died come back to attest that?

.. and it was written down in the bible.

That fool proof book?
Sorry, I don't think its tales represent the real world.

Kindly read what I wrote again and again, until the glaring part where me dying being equivalent to going back into the nothingness I was before I was conceived becomes clear to your mind.

What was abundantly clear from the beginning is that you do not understand death. My assertion was an attempt to correct your flawed understanding of death. You think death is oblivion and that you are pulled from oblivion to be sent to Hell. Jesus teaches Death is our birth into eternity. Which Means from this birth one must endure Death/Hell to reach the oblivion you said you wanted. My question was asked in light of this new information, do you still seek oblivion?

First, you haven't provided any new information, only a "new" hypothesis/idea/concept.
Second, if I don't intuitively accept this jesus character as a conveyer of information concerning the after-life, how am I going to consider your hypothesis about the man's teachings?
Third, my understanding of death is the only one I can be sure of... your is based on the second-hand account of ramblings of some guy who may have been lunatic... We all know there are some of those even today!

Fourth, you say that people die and are born into eternity and then you say I have to endure death to reach the oblivion I expect?!... birth.. live.. die... birth....die
How many times does one die in your world?

[DeistPaladin]

So I ask again is this what you really want?

The universe doesn't care what we really want.

Reality is not obliged to conform to our desires.

Sure, I would love to be immortal, to be forever young if you could somehow give me the chance. I can only imagine all the wonders I would witness. Hopefully, I would see humanity go to the stars and build a truly rational civilization. I wonder if atheists who say otherwise aren't expressing disdain for sour grapes.

Do I spend a lot of time wishing for that or thinking of that possibility? No. The universe isn't going to change just because I want it to. I will grow old and die and that can't be changed. When I do die, what will happen will happen. I'm prepared for the very distinct possibility that this is the only life I'll know, that God gives us one shot at the brass ring and then it's fade-to-black-roll-the-credits.

I might like to at least get an epilogue but, once again, the universe doesn't give a crap what I want so no use even discussing it.

So why do you even ask?

[The Grand Nudger]

Sure, I would love to be immortal, to be forever young if you could somehow give me the chance. I can only imagine all the wonders I would witness. Hopefully, I would see humanity go to the stars and build a truly rational civilization. I wonder if atheists who say otherwise aren't expressing disdain for sour grapes.

Ah....but here you hope for a rational space-faring society. What if you had to endure an eternity full of religious zealots who finally got tired of waiting for the apocalypse and gave it a nudge, an eternity of club wielding savages-until they all die out at least. Imagine an eternity of watching your descendants and loved ones die. Imagine an eternity of people shaking their knees in the seat next to you on the bus. I don't know, on the surface it seems like a seductive idea...and I can't say that I wouldn;t jump at it - but it's easy to see all the ways it can go terribly awry, and ultimately-being a devoted follower of murphys law- I don't think it would be all that we might invest the fantasy with.

I noticed that you at least managed to escape the unfortunate fate of Tithonus, whose lover having asked that he be granted eternal life - forgot to also plead for eternal youth.

[DeistPaladin]

Ah....but here you hope for a rational space-faring society.

At least this hope is (1) possible and (2) something that we can work to achieve.

Unlike the fantasy of either eternal youth or eternal extension of this life.

But yes, you make a good point that I may be in for a living hell, surrounded by fundamentalist apocalyptic nutjobs who destroy civilization, until the sun finally does me and the whole planet in.

[The Grand Nudger]

Or maybe we got that whole sun-death bit wrong (after all, if you're doing the whole forever bit we got that biological limit wrong didn't we...hehehe), and it won't end it....just to spite you..lol.
(or worse, it does, you live through it, and spend the rest of eternity - which is conveniently forever - completely and utterly alone)

Can't help myself.
(I recall having made a defense of god along those lines - completely and irreversibly insane due to loneliness spanning the "forever" before)

[DeistPaladin]

Or maybe we got that whole sun-death bit wrong (after all, if you're doing the whole forever bit we got that biological limit wrong didn't we...hehehe), and it won't end it....just to spite you..lol.
(or worse, it does, you live through it, and spend the rest of eternity - which is conveniently forever - completely and utterly alone)

Can't help myself.

Oooo, good point.

You see, it really depends on how big the sun gets when it goes Red Giant. I've heard that some astronomers debate whether or not the earth will get swallowed up or whether it will escape that fate. It is possible that the earth will narrowly escape being swallowed up and then wind up being a barren, scorched rock floating through space once the sun collapses.

But I think your point is that even being swallowed up by the sun won't do the job of bringing final death. What would happen to the sun after the Red Giant phase. Anyone know? Our sun isn't big enough to become a black hole, so what happens to the remains? Neutron star?

[downbeatplumb]

White dwarf then black dwarf.

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subject...eath.shtml

the outer layers of the Sun will continue to expand. As this happens, the core will contract; the helium atoms in the core will fuse together, forming carbon atoms and releasing energy. The core will then be stable since the carbon atoms are not further compressible.
Then the outer layers of the Sun drift off into space, forming a planetary nebula (a planetary nebula has nothing to do with planets), exposing the core. Most of its mass will go to the nebula. The remaining Sun will cool and shrink; it will eventually be only a few thousand miles in diameter!
The star is now a white dwarf, a stable star with no nuclear fuel. It radiates its left-over heat for billions of years. When its heat is all dispersed, it will be a cold, dark black dwarf - essentially a dead star (perhaps replete with diamonds, highly compressed carbon).

[DeistPaladin]

White dwarf then black dwarf.

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subject...eath.shtml

the outer layers of the Sun will continue to expand. As this happens, the core will contract; the helium atoms in the core will fuse together, forming carbon atoms and releasing energy. The core will then be stable since the carbon atoms are not further compressible.
Then the outer layers of the Sun drift off into space, forming a planetary nebula (a planetary nebula has nothing to do with planets), exposing the core. Most of its mass will go to the nebula. The remaining Sun will cool and shrink; it will eventually be only a few thousand miles in diameter!
The star is now a white dwarf, a stable star with no nuclear fuel. It radiates its left-over heat for billions of years. When its heat is all dispersed, it will be a cold, dark black dwarf - essentially a dead star (perhaps replete with diamonds, highly compressed carbon).

If the sun's outer core expands out to be a nebula, would that completely vaporize the planets, particularly Earth and Mars, if these worlds don't get swallowed up during the Red Giant phase? Or would these worlds become charred asteroids?

[downbeatplumb]

If the sun's outer core expands out to be a nebula, would that completely vaporize the planets, particularly Earth and Mars, if these worlds don't get swallowed up during the Red Giant phase? Or would these worlds become charred asteroids?

My understanding is that the nebula is just a sort of left over dust with no heat of it's own. once far enough away from the nuclear reaction of the sun it would be cool.

So not vaporised or charred but dusty.

[ThomM]

If you believe Hell to be immoral or just plain wrong, then what would you suggest God do with those who do not want to serve Him for eternity?

Let see

No god is proven to exist - and hell is not proven to exist as well

Once you realize that both are human created fictions -then you have not posed a question at all

In the fictional story - the god created hell - and claimed that everything it created was good. So - the question for you is - why would we care about something that does not exist - and what it should or should not do?

IF you claim otherwise - prove existence in a testable and verifiable manner