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RE: Can you ever believe that there is no God
April 23, 2013 at 6:38 pm
Ok - it's clear: you think that knowing that there is no God could have no effect on someone's behaviour whatsoever (E.g. Avoiding prayer, writing books about this knowledge, attempting to convince something of this.
Like many here previously - I disagree but I see you are quite certain this knowledge makes you no different from someone who does not know either way...
God bless mate!
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RE: Can you ever believe that there is no God
April 23, 2013 at 6:40 pm
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Can you ever believe that there is no God
April 23, 2013 at 6:40 pm
(April 23, 2013 at 6:34 pm)Dawud Wrote: Please read again to understand my question pocaracas.
It is about if knowledge that there is no such thing as God can lead to someone to do something...
Rhythm says no...
I said that due to the irrational behaviour of humans that this knowledge could lead to something. He tries to evade by changing the goal post to not having knowledge about God but I say you can have have knowledge that God does not exist (as does Rhythm) but that this knowledge can also lead to behaviour... (Rhythm previously disagreed with the last bit) Well, sure, my knowledge that Santa Claus doesn't exist means I don't leave him milk and cookies and I do my own Christmas shopping instead of letting Santa give all the presents. But there's a rather large difference between those minor modifications in behavior and what you want to argue about Stalin. Atheism in itself is not very motivating, certainly not enough to cause anyone to kill someone.
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RE: Can you ever believe that there is no God
April 23, 2013 at 6:40 pm
(This post was last modified: April 23, 2013 at 6:51 pm by Dawud.)
I thank you very much!
I don't want to argue about Stalin...
Just don't want people to deny the possibility and pretend that no-one could ever abuse atheism....
No-one would kill in the name if atheism....
Hee-Hee
That's why I do t want to argue about Stalin - people are closed I their minds to even the possibility that some crazy B-might start a campaign to eradicate belief in God from a population.
Hence why I had to get Rhythm to admit that either 1. knowledge that there is no God can lead to many different behaviours depending on the person (including irrational people) or that 2. You can know there is God but it cannot affect a persons behaviour.
He chose 2.
He rests his case with another intellectually redundant insult and now I'm off to bed...
Oh! A midway answer that says atheism cannot affect a person that deeply (as made above). You just have to decide how profound an effect atheism has on people's lives.
I'd suggest its a better option than Rhythm's 'knowing there is no God can have no effect on a person stance'
Well done Rhythm
Kudos!
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RE: Can you ever believe that there is no God
April 23, 2013 at 6:54 pm
(This post was last modified: April 23, 2013 at 7:11 pm by Simon Moon.)
(April 23, 2013 at 6:40 pm)Dawud Wrote: IThat's why I do t want to argue about Stalin - people are closed I their minds to even the possibility that some crazy B-might start a campaign to eradicate belief in God from a population.
You might have missed this wonderful post (or ignored it most likely) by apophenia on one of your other many threads. Please read it and learn:
apophenia Wrote: Regarding Stalin, and the Communists in general. First, in addition to being a tu quoque argument to excuse religious evils, and not connecting with the behavior of atheists generally, it shows a remarkable ignorance of history. The communists persecuted religion because according to communist philosophy, religion hindered and impeded the development of the ideal communist state, and therefore to engage in religious practice was a crime against the proletariat. Just as in the previous example of atheists reacting to theism, communists were reacting to what they perceived to be a threat to the good of society, namely religion. It was a reaction to what they saw as the harmful effects of religion, though those harmful effects were defined considerably differently than contemporary atheists define them, and than those outside Marxist, socialist politics might have defined them. They weren't promoting atheism for atheism's sake. So your whole point is botched by the particulars. More than that, however, I will agree with you that there are extremes in combating religion which are not justified by the potential fruits; however, I would evaluate the justifiability of a reaction to religion on the merits of the individual case, not based on a stereotyped response that reacting to religion negatively is always wrong, nor that atheism in some sense 'causes' any unjustifiable reactions.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Can you ever believe that there is no God
April 23, 2013 at 7:09 pm
I think Dawud is confusing atheism with antitheism perhaps?
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RE: Can you ever believe that there is no God
April 23, 2013 at 7:22 pm
Generally the taxonomy used in UK philosophy (journals etc.) is atheist (denial of God/gods existing: probably closest to anti-theist), and agnostic (claiming no knowledge either way)
The subsections are interesting sections of atheist thought but as I would say that both anti-theism and agnosticism can affect lives I hold that atheism is something that has influence in people in both rational and irrational ways. Quite common sense but obviously some counter-intuitive assertions that atheism and agnosticism have no bearing on behaviour are held by people such as Rhythm my old bud!
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RE: Can you ever believe that there is no God
April 23, 2013 at 7:25 pm
I don't believe, { } therefore......?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Can you ever believe that there is no God
April 23, 2013 at 7:28 pm
(April 23, 2013 at 6:18 pm)Dawud Wrote: Lets take what's known in philosophy as Generic Philosophical Monotheism (GPM - get to know it if you are in to philosophy).
Basically the source of existence, separate from existence, Omniscient, Omnipotent...
Belief and knowledge are not the same thing no matter how long you torture the dictionary.
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RE: Can you ever believe that there is no God
April 23, 2013 at 7:30 pm
Apophena's lovely post is great and I agree that they weren't promoting atheism for atheism's sake - I never thought that.
It's just that the spreading if it for the aim for the good of society in such a violent way is proof that people can do bad things cos they think spreading atheism is important. I don't think Stalins slaughter of the religious was representative of atheists hence it is not a tu quoque upon atheism: Im not trying to disprove atheism - just prove what you have said "communists were reacting to what they perceived to be a threat to the good of society, namely religion." In his attack on religion he attacked the belief in God as a bad thing.
I don't think he was just some evangelical atheist - dont worry.
Read what I say - bit what you think I'll say.
I just try to open your mind to the possibility that someone might do something bad because they want to spread atheism - but still you'll deny this:
I get it!
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